The Evolution of Homophobia: It’s Not About Hating Gay People
“Silence itself—the things one declines to say, or is forbidden to name, the discretion that is required between speakers is…an element that functions alongside the things said…There is no binary division to be made between what one says and what one does not say; we must try to determine the different ways of not saying such things.” Michel Foucault, History of Sexuality Vol. 1
Considering the height of contemporary social activism, the threat of a “post-racial” declaration before actual attainment, and the ongoing struggle with homosexuality in the United States, now is the perfect time to start discussing the “silences” of prejudice. Clearly, we have seen manifestations of racism in the last few months that go beyond atrocious acts of racially derogatory name-calling and physical harm. It is the ingrained social politics of discrimination that continue to prevent this country from sprinting toward a progressive nationhood and, eventually, social equality.
Professor Melissa Harris-Lacewell made a comment on MSNBC that caused me to truly reflect on the definition of racism, sexism, and homophobia. She stated that we, as minorities, as women, as LGBT supporters, have not done a good enough job at explaining the evolution of these terms for our fellow Americans. The majority of the country still is operating under old definitions, e.g., racism as spewing the n-word, sexism as being intentionally unfair to women, and homophobia as hating “gay” people. As society progresses, the forms of prejudice will continue to change and evolve. Unfortunately, the discriminatory ideologies surrounding these social issues are deeply embedded in our psyches, often causing us not to realize our individual participation in their perpetuation.
Over the last few months I’ve written, filmed, and read commentary, about controversial LGBT topics. I’ve encountered and combated a lot of anti-LGBT discourse that likely was not intended to be anti-LGBT. A profound example of a popular anti-LGBT topic that I believe was not intended to be anti-LGBT, is the salacious “down low” phenomenon. Time and time again I hear the same response from the authors and similarly minded commentators on these articles:
“I’m not homophobic.”
“I don’t hate gay people.”
“I love gay people.”
Really? Are you sure about that? I’d have to disagree—and I’d encourage you to hear me out.
It’s not about “hating gay people.” That is a simple manifestation of homophobia. I’m interested in what’s under the cornbread. Let’s talk about the things that people don’t want to say, especially within the Black community, and the silences surrounding the discomfort of homosexuality. Let’s talk about Black women in heterosexual relationships who freak when their male partners convey homosexual desires (it’s happened to me and, yes, I reacted the same way). Let’s talk about the disgust and contorted faces that occur when we see a gay couple kissing. Let’s simply admit that the majority of the Black community believes that heterosexuality is the norm, and that it is superior to any form of homosexual relations.
Beyond the conversations surrounding homosexual, disease-spreading promiscuity, and the growing rate of HIV cases for black women with unfounded evidence that bisexual men are perpetuating these statistics, our discomfort with homosexuality trumps all. That is the bottom line. We do not understand homosexuality, have been taught in our families and churches that it is abnormal, and, frankly, do not care to challenge or consider altering our beliefs.
We live in a society that places heteronormativity on the throne of social relations, e.g., tax breaks for heterosexual couples, skewed hospital visitation rights, limited access to child adoption, etc.
Heteronormativity is the institutionalized belief that heterosexuality is the best and singular mode of sexual and gender organization for society, creating a hierarchy in sexual politics that is detrimental to LGBT and heterosexual people. Under this social model, technically, homosexuality can exist without any physical threat or ramifications, but it will never be treated as equal to heterosexual relations.
This creates an atmosphere of separatism where, essentially, most Black Americans adopt the attitude that insinuates that it is okay for people to be gay, just do it away and apart from the community. We don’t consider it “normal,” but they have the “choice” to do it over there. We find it “unacceptable,” but, hey, they can conduct their lives as they please. Basically, let me forget that the “they” also is the “we” and that unfair sexual politics harm members of the Black community. Yes, let me turn my cheek and pretend that none of this is intertwined, like this is not an equally pressing issue to racism and sexism.
Wake up! Oppressions are not mutually exclusive.
Heteronormativity breeds homophobia like old garbage births larva.
This is not an easy or fun conversation to have. I’m sure that I’ll have a number of nooses waiting for me online once this is published. Before anyone throws his or her religious beliefs into this conversation, let us reflect on the numerous occasions in history where religion has been used as an oppressive force—including the 400 years of enslavement of our ancestors. Please do not fall into that knee jerk trap.
I have no problem with anyone’s religious beliefs, but recognize that this country separates religion and state. I challenge you to step outside of your personal beliefs about how you conduct your life in order to create a better nation. For the record, I am a heterosexual woman who has no interest dating other women. That does not make me exempt from tackling LGBT discrimination. Racism, sexism, and homophobia remain intertwined. Same script and, truly, an overlapping cast.
In the words of Audre Lorde:
“For the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. They may allow us to temporarily beat him at his own game, but they will never enable us to bring about genuine change. Racism and homophobia are real conditions of all our lives in this place and time. I urge each one of us here to reach down into that deep place of knowledge inside herself and touch that terror and loathing of any difference that lives here. See whose face it wears. Then the personal as the political can begin to illuminate all our choices.”
We must move beyond simplistic analyses of sexuality and touch that terror of the “other.” We can no longer afford to have discussions that only brush the surface of our fears. Dig deeper, love harder, and think of those who stepped outside their box to combat other oppressions. Sometimes, challenging yourself can be the hardest but most rewarding experience in social progress.
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I had a conversation with a friend regarding whether she thought people could be born gay. She’s bi-sexual and said every since she was a kid she was always drawn to women, and talked about how so many young people kill themselves because they feel that they were born in the wrong body. Do you really think a person would purposely subject themselves to so much hate one receives if they identify as homosexual? I don’t think so. Personally, the only thing I have against homosexuality is when you lie about who you are. As a black women in an era where we occupy the highest growing numbers of hiv from OUR men…its a scary thought. Only way to get these numbers down is to be more accepting of it. Face it, GLBT are not going anywhere. Here in Chicago it surprises me how the violence amoung teens is skyrocketing and no laws, amounts of police on the streets or weekends where 40+ people are shot can rile people enough to get the growing numbers of kilings down yet we can come up with every law in the book to keep homosexuals from marrying. We allow our kids to watch every violent movie on tv and get made at gays for expressing affection. We condone violence, yet shun love… just my thoughts
yesssssss
@misty: PLEASE read this. i beg of you
http://www.cardcarryinglesbian.com/http:/cardcarryinglesbian.com/butch-femme/butch-on-butch-ummm-ok
and how does saying youve never seen two ‘masculine’ women make your point? im sure youve seen two ‘masculine’ men… or two more ‘feminine’ men in a couple. theyre not sticking to your idea of gender roles and social norms. were not speaking about lesbians only, here. (Oh, and since you mentioned it, lubricant as well as semen have also been known to leak out of some people’s anuses, if they have a fistula.)
AND as others have mentioned, what about transexuals? what about people who are asexual and have no attraction? your arguments are groundless….
Excellent article!
Whether or not you want to see two men (it’s always two men; often women get a “pass” because surely they were treated horribly by men) kissing is besides the point; baby girl is going to come home with questions because one of her classmates has two mommies or two daddies. What kind of parent would you be if you started telling a young child that some kinds of love are wrong? Focusing on abhorrent sexual acts between LGBT people misses the point: you can’t help who you love.
This is one a slippery slope. My first sexual experience was with a woman and although it felt great, I was not attracted to her at all. I have never found myself attracted any female sexually, but have find myself thinking about those experiences from time to time. I have not considered being in a relationship with a woman at all. IN MY OPINION, I feel that our experiences shape us.
Lust is lust, no matter whom it is for. Sex can be between anything. I have read in Zane’s book about one of her characters getting busy with an umbrella, I have heard of some men and woman getting busy with animals, etc. I am in no way comparing being “gay” with these things, just showing that people find all kinds of ways to release sexual tension that are considered deviant. As far as being in “love” with someone of the same sex. I challenge this. I am in love with the women in my life as well as my children; however, I would not have sex with them. Scientifically, the brain secretes the same hormones when we encounter our children that it does for our significant other. Maybe this is what makes some confuse ‘in love’ with ‘love’. So I am not sure I agree that people are born ‘gay’.
The science of love:
Oxytocin – The cuddle hormone
Oxytocin is a powerful hormone released by men and women during orgasm.
It probably deepens the feelings of attachment and makes couples feel much closer to one another after they have had sex. The theory goes that the more sex a couple has, the deeper their bond becomes.
Oxytocin also seems to help cement the strong bond between mum and baby and is released during childbirth. It is also responsible for a mum’s breast automatically releasing milk at the mere sight or sound of her young baby.
Diane Witt, assistant professor of psychology from New York has showed that if you block the natural release of oxytocin in sheep and rats, they reject their own young.
Conversely, injecting oxytocin into female rats who’ve never had sex, caused them to fawn over another female’s young, nuzzling the pups and protecting them as if they were their own.
Vasopressin
Vasopressin is another important hormone in the long-term commitment stage and is released after sex.
Vasopressin (also called anti-diuretic hormone) works with your kidneys to control thirst. Its potential role in long-term relationships was discovered when scientists looked at the prairie vole.
Prairie voles indulge in far more sex than is strictly necessary for the purposes of reproduction. They also – like humans – form fairly stable pair-bonds.
When male prairie voles were given a drug that suppresses the effect of vasopressin, the bond with their partner deteriorated immediately as they lost their devotion and failed to protect their partner from new suitors
http://www.youramazingbrain.org/lovesex/sciencelove.htm
great article, insightful. and thank you for encouraging people to examine their discriminatory thoughts and attitudes beyond gay marriage. just because you agree with gay marriage does not mean you’re not homophobic and that you don’t participate in maintaining heteronormativity to the detriment of lgbt folks. and thank you for pointing out that homophobia harms members of the black community, like myself, a lesbian, who is proud to be black but who often feels alienated from the larger black community because of willful, unchecked, religious backed ignorance and homophobia.
and thank you for bringing up intersectionality, and intertwining foucault and audre lorde into the article. she’s right. you can’t dismantle the master’s house with the master’s tools. i still can’t understand how people can blithely use their religious beliefs against others when that same religion was used against them.
Great article!
One will not be content if he/she worries about what the rest of the world has to say about his/her lifestyle. You will NEVER get everyone on this or any other bandwagon. JUST DO YOU! It does not really matter, because ultimately we all have to answer to no one here on this earth, only The Creator. That is who we should wonder whether or not He accepts our lifestyle.
There will always be people that disagree on things. I should not be seen as ‘homophobic’ because I do not agree with the lifestyle. I am not hardly afraid the lifestyle. I just know that it is not for me. Moreover, if I voice that when asked, why get upset? People have opinions about everything. Nor should a person who considers themselves gay or lesbian be an outcast in society. Everyone should be respected. Bottom line.
Just know that you will NEVER get people to accept something that have been deemed as wrong since the beginning of time. If someone does not like what you do, guess what—so what?
whatever, homosexual people (and animals) have existed BEFORE CHRISTIANITY. it’s natural. and yea, what you said, challenging the fact that two people of the same sex could even be in love with each other: homophobic. and like assholes, everyone has an opinion.
You know, BeefBacon, you are absolutely right! The important thing is to do you!
My parents are an IR couple that married back in the Stone Age, didn’t give a sh!t what anyone thought, and still happily together; I’m in an IR marriage and couldn’t give one pubic hair what anyone thinks. I was going to address a certain commenter but I don’t learn from hysteria and will return to ignoring.
A key concept some appear to be missing is that the LGBT movement needs the support of heterosexuals (due to sheer numbers alone) – at the bare minimum for assisting in voting down legislation that would be discriminatory – first and foremost because they have straight parents, family and friends in a primarily straight world and need their places in the family secured as well as their love and support. At end of the day, it won’t always be possible to completely change a person over to one’s side, but having mutual respect and them in agreement and firmly in one’s corner to equally protect their rights is important.
No doubt about it this article was directed to heterosexuals. To me one of the author’s key premises was, being people of color, we should be ashamed of being homophobic and friggin’ know better than that due to history – but the challenge is to reconcile that with the fundamental faith beliefs of many AAs, Latinos, Asians etc. (regarding homosexuality). The author’s plea was for heterosexuals to “challenge or consider altering our beliefs” and a challenge to “step outside of your personal beliefs about how you conduct your life in order to create a better nation,” and getting one’s blood pressure up and ranting and name-calling those of faith or with differing opinions sways no-bo-dy and is not exactly conducive to getting people in the mood to ‘alter’ or ‘step outside’.
I don’t have to be gay to empathize nor do I have to fully understand shoes I can never possibly walk in; what I can do is love people as they are, love my family, let God do God’s work, and wish for every individual the same human rights I’d have for myself. And even in the LGBT community there is no monolith on what is ‘offensive’; these are conversations I’ve had with my gay cousin, uncle and other gay/lesbian loved ones and nothing you or ChellBellz’ wrote is something they would take offense over.
There has got to be a happy medium between LGBT’s respecting people’s faith beliefs and people of faith being a lot less judgmental and actually more Christ-like — but no consensus can be reached between two parties if one party is deemed the only one that has to ‘give a little’…be that understanding, considering an opposing POV, or ‘stepping outside personal beliefs’.
for all the ignorant folks who keep insisting that child molestation “turns” people gay: did child molestation “turn” you straight?what made you know that you were straight? why is that not even a notion in your minds? could it be heterosexuality is the default and correct sexuality, and other sexual orientations deviant? sorry that’s a homophobic belief and contributing to heteronormativity, which hurts lgbt folks. just want to you know.
here are some articles that purport that homosexuality is natural:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_caus3.htm
http://www.zmescience.com/medicine/genetic/gay-gene-found-lesbian-mice-study-0232321/
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/nu-prof-bailey-researching-possible-gay-gene-1.2226660
A lot of discussion going on here. I’m thankful! I love the conversation and hope it continues.
I’m seeing a regular response coming from my Christian friends/more religious commenters (I love you too even if we may disagree). Many of you have stated that while you agree that LGBT people should have equal rights, you do not feel that you should have to alter your beliefs to be more tolerant or support their lifestyle. According to most of you, this is based on the biblical premise of God being intolerant toward homosexuality.
I have a question for you. I brought up religion in my piece for a reason because I expected this response. I’ve heard it before, but I wonder how you feel about the following:
Is it acceptable for non-black Americans to use the biblical stance that God separated the races (come on old testament lovers, you know what I’m talking about, but to be specific Genesis 11:9) and that things ought to stay that way…as separated?
Returning to the discussion on sexuality, there also are verses that prohibit pre-marital sex. Are you also intolerant to individuals who live that lifestyle?
Unfortunately, I feel like there is selective listening when it comes to the bible and that homosexuality is often chosen as the scapegoat of all “sins.” There’s no right answer to any of the above questions, but I just wonder what your opinions are.
Is there a difference between biblical verses supporting racial separatism and the “abomination” of premarital sex in comparison to homosexuality? And if you see the first two as a problem, I’m curious to know why homosexuality strikes a chord with you in terms of intolerance.
Drop comments and get at me on Twitter @arielleloren as many of you have.
Much love to everyone for your thoughts :-)
Arielle Loren
Putting aside the face that God’s servant, Moses, married a Cushite/Ethiopian woman (Numbers 12:1), Genesis 11 shows God’s reaction (confusing language then scattering throughout the earth) to people being disobedient and trying to act like gods and get to heaven on their own terms and through their own abilities and without God by building a tower. They wanted to avoid being scattered around the earth which was going against God’s command in Genesis 9:1 to ‘be fruitful and fill the earth’.
So any claim about that chapter even remotely being a statement against IR relationships is off the mark to an extreme as #1) all of them were descendants of Noah and, thus, the same ‘race’; and #2) obviously people can be of the same ‘race’ (i.e. French or German) yet speak different languages.
About fornication/sex outside marriage, this is a subject a couple of participants in this thread already discussed once.
I doubt anyone wants to turn this into a ‘religious’ (big yawn) discussion as they never go anywhere nice, but I think there are hypocritical Christians just as surely as there are hypocritical @ss gays/lesbians. There are some who claim to be Christian and have sex and children outside marriage yet point the finger to damn gays/lesbians to hell, and there are those who claim to be Christian who do/have not had sex or children outside of marriage; some of them damn gays/lesbians to hell and some don’t!
This was very well written provocative piece. I love Audre Lorde! Gays do deserve equal rights, adopt, they should be able to call their unions marriage just like heterosexuals. They should be able to be out & about just like any other person.
Now this is just a free-flowing thought….
Sidenote: To the religious people who say marriage is a sacred term. Let’s talk about the evolution of marriage. It’s not really that “sacred” anymore…a 50% divorce rate, married for reasons other than love, or a quick ceremony in Vegas…so what’s so terrible about allowing gays to use the term marriage.
Although it’s not apples to apples, deep down, I think it’s like this…I don’t mind interracial couples. I don’t wince, have white relatives, etc; however, I would have a problem with my child bringing home a white man/woman. So I can support interracial love on the streets but I don’t to welcome it in my home. That maybe somewhat contradictory and I’m working on it:)
With that said, I believe heterosexuality is the norm (afterall, we do have to reproduce), some people are naturally homosexual and others are not. I don’t like comparing the black civil rights movement to gay rights but I believe if all the rights movements would join forces, there could be a lot of change in America.
I also disagree that “down low” perpetuates homophobia. It’s a fact that it is a leading cause of HIV/AIDS cases but then it’s also like if there wasn’t so much homophobia in the community would there be so many “down low” cases.
Anyway, I’m gonna re-read this article again, get my thoughts together, and form a coherent opinion.
Once again, great job!
The grey area is getting bigger by the minute. Personal choices are just that– personal.
Where do we draw the line? Should we be tolerant of every personal choice that may one day have a bad effect on our world? What bad effect can homosexuality have you ask? Hmmmmm, how many babies will NOT be born if the gay population continues to grow?
Say what you will but this world was designed with purpose. If we work against that purpose, bad things eventually happen. This is common sense.
Some actually compare being born black to being gay as if they are the same. THEY ARE NOT. I was born black; I did not choose or PREFER to be black. The problem with homosexuality is that MOST people see it as a CHOICE! A choice is something you can choose today and not choose tomorrow.
I do not care what people do behind closed doors as long as it does not infringe on my rights as a human in general. However, I do draw the line when a group wants to MAKE me accept choices they choose to make. I will not wince at a homosexual couple’s PDA; yet, I will teach my children that it is STILL a sin as all other sin. Therefore, no amount of you calling me homophobic WILL EVER change that.
The one thing a spiritual person knows is that if you do not STAND for something you will FALL for anything. Just as pre-marital sex is wrong and we still choose to do it, we are seeing the effect this has on our communities, yet, it is still a choice being MADE DAILY. Since we have become tolerant of this, it has change things for the WORSE. So not every choice made should be tolerated based on that fact alone.
The Devil/Satan or whatever you want to call the force of evil was allowed to control the earth for a season. This is why the world is in such a sad state. Most of what is taking place in this world today is based on destroying The Creator’s work.
Beside, individually we all have our own vices we need to work on than to worry about someone else’s.
homosexual people comprise about 10% of the population in this country and there have ALWAYS
homosexual people comprise about 10% of the population in this country and not to mention that there have ALWAYS been gay people. the amount of gay people will probably never equal the amount of straight people there are. gay people ALSO have children of their own through heterosexual sex or through other means like artificial insemination and surrogacy. so if more gay people come out and are comfortable with themselves how exactly would that stop procreation? don’t be ridiculous. do you know what common sense is? not what you just wrote.
and guess what i’m black and i’m gay. don’t be a complete ignoramus and try to tell me what my life experience is because i can most certainly assure you i did not CHOOSE to be gay. i chose to be honest with myself and others and express my natural sexual orientation. the sexual orienatation i’ve had SINCE I WAS A CHILD. i could walk outside tommorow and pretend to be straight and life would automatically be easier for me on many levels. i could choose to pretend to be straight and eventually hurt : my husband, children, and both our families. THAT WOULD BE SINFUL.
homosexuality is a natural part of life. not a sin. it is not a force of evil. it is a sexual orientation. please educate yourself. why don’t you click on a few of the links i provided and stop seeing this through the narrow minded lens of your religious beliefs.
the annoyance in my tone has to do with what appears to be otherwise educated, intelligent adults being openly willfully ignorant like it’s okay and not expecting a negative response. people are free to be believe and say whatever ignorance they want. and i am free to challenge it with critical, rational thinking, and human decency.
Sloane– Now I am a ignoramus because of my thoughts and views, yet you expect RESPECT from others. From where I stand your attitude will ALWAYS be met with opposition. Maybe if you knocked that chip off your shoulders and CALMED DOWN, more people would be inclined to AT LEAST listen to your point of view. You catch more flies with sugar honey…..
10% is smaill; Nothing to boast about in fact. It still proves that overall it is deemed WRONG!
I do not have to broaden my mind to accept anything, especially coming from a venom-spewing hothead.
As you stated, HETEROSEXUAL SEX and scientific ways to procreate are available. And? Furthers proves my point…. Naturally, homosexual couples have to go through hurdle after hurdle to have a child.
Sloane, you wrote—–”i chose to be honest with myself and others and express my natural sexual orientation. the sexual orientation i’ve had SINCE I WAS A CHILD”
Is that what this is about….SEX!? As I stated before, I have been with a woman, and YES, it felt fabulous as most SEX DOES. Would I base my life on it…..NO! Sin appeals to the senses….THE FLESH!
I will read the links you posted for educational purposes. Yet, I WILL NOT broaden my lens to accept every other person’s definition of TRUTH. Should I also broaden my mind to include adults that PREFER to have SEX with children??? As I am sure this group feels excluded as well.
Religion has nothing to do with my beliefs. We were all blessed with a conscience which speaks to us every time we are about to do something wrong. This is my guide. When I was a child, I did childish things…
I MUST and should respect everyone, but I do not have to LIKE what you do and that is a choice you must respect as well. Calling people names will never further your cause.
no, beefbacon, pretty much everything you’ve said was ignorant but telling me that my sexuality is a choice from your vantage point as a straight christian is being a complete ignoramus. the things YOU HAVE SAID ABOUT ABOUT A FACET OF MY BEING IS DISRESPECTFUL, and you know it, and you keep on repeating the same things OVER AND OVER AGAIN. so telling me to correct MY tone, in response to some of the ignorant and hurtful things you’ve said like: my sexuality is unnatural, based on lust, is a choice, and that two gay people are incapable of having real relationships and falling in love, is ridiculous. why do you think the inflammatory things you’ve said should go unchallenged? maybe i won’t change your mind but maybe you’ll think twice before repeating some of the things you’ve said because they are hurtful, and might ACTUALLY start being rational and using critical thinking to ponder why they are hurtful and eventually….hey! you might just start educating yourself.
you are totally off the mark in interpreting my quote about knowing my sexual orientation since i was a child. i knew i had an attraction to other girls before i even really knew what SEX WAS. like straight relationships, homosexual relationships are about A HELL OF A LOT MORE THEN SEX. let me ask you a question…are your relationships with men SOLELY BASED ON SEX? NO? I THOUGHT SO. neither are gay relationships.
and what about straight couples who find it hard to reproduce? what if they use scientific means to have children or even heterosexual sex with an outside partner? since they have to go through hurdles to procreate does that somehow make THEIR couplings completely unnatural? why does the fact that gay people reproduce differently mean that THEY are sinful, unnatural couplings?
and you know damn well the reason i said that gay people only comprise 10% of the population and that gays themselves still find a way to procreate was to refute your asinine arguement that if more gays come out, that it would somehow be like an epidemic that would negatively effect procreation. i wasn’t boasting about the amount of gay people and you know it. i was making a point: the small percentage of people that are gay does not mean homosexuality is “proved wrong”. it means it is a naturally occuring trait (like left-handedness occuring less then right-handedness) that does not occur as often as heterosexuality. so what the f*ck are you talking about?
.
and comparing the sex between two CONSENTING ADULTS to the SEXUAL ABUSE of children and animals, who cannot ever cosent, is completely out of line, even for you. the two situations are not analogous and you know it. no one would ask you or anyone else to broaden your horizons to accept something that is inherently hurtful to someone or something else…but homosexuality is hurting who?…yep, that would be no one.
beef bacon, you and every other religious bible thumper is free to believe and say what you want. it doesn’t mean that whatever you say is going to go unchallenged by rational thought and maybe some anger at what you have the AUDACITY to say, okay? lets be real.
Great article and great discussion! As a black woman, Christian and feminist I support gay rights. I believe there are civil rights that should be granted to any citizen of this country regardless of sexual orientation. The right to marry is one of them. And I’m also one of those Christians that don’t believe gay people are going to hell for being gay.
However, I have to agree with @ Jazz, @ Tia and @Ivy partially. “What if I don’t want to change my mind, sloane? What if my God has told me that it is NOT normal? Who are you to tell me that I need to change my mind anyway just because that is who you are? Who am I to go ahead and go against what God has communicated to me just because man chooses otherwise?”
I understand the need to dismantle homophobia in order to progress on the issue of gay rights. But as the above commenters have expressed, asking someone to completely disregard their religious beliefs and the scriptural foundation for those beliefs is not fair either. Not only is it not fair, but it’s pretentious and nonsensical. Homosexuals, gay activists and non-believers want us to be understanding of their plight, yet at the cost of Christians disregarding what they believe their God has instructed. It is one reason there will always be adversary in the dialogue about homosexuality and religion.
what i want is rationality and human decency, and honestly i don’t believe that seeing homosexuality through the lens of traditonal christianity is going to lead to unconditional acceptance of gay people.
the author states so herself:
“Before anyone throws his or her religious beliefs into this conversation, let us reflect on the numerous occasions in history where religion has been used as an oppressive force—including the 400 years of enslavement of our ancestors. Please do not fall into that knee jerk trap.”
people are confronted with the evidence that there is nothing wrong or unnatural about being gay and still choose to treat gay people in a discriminatory manner by asking them to be less affectionate then they would a straight couple, and propagating hurtful and damaging misinformation such as homosexuality being a perverted lustful choice and borne out of child sexual abuse. this is about more then gay rights, which are ultimately important. this is about treating gay people’s relationships with parity in everyday life and people educating themselves and seeing beyond their religious and cultural myopia.
I’m not going to flush my spiritual beliefs which are at the core of my values and sensibilities because it’s inconvenient to someone’s argument. I’ll say this, I will never think ‘gay is okay’ but I do recognize we live in a democracy not a theocracy so that’s as good as I can give you.
Fantastic article! Never really thought about “Heteronormativity,” but you are so right! We need to do more to expose this foolishness.
I hope that all these people who are using religion to justify their ignorance don’t have sex out marriage and certainly don’t have any children out of wedlock. I swear, people are ready to pull out the verses when the word homo is uttered, but yet “live in sin” with partners and have multiple children (sometimes with multiple people) out of wedlock. I’m just saying.
And please give me a break with all this “natural/unnatural” stuff. We are not amoebas. Humanity passed simple: birth, procreate, and die” when we created airplanes, landed on the moon, cracked the human genome and created religion. FYI, as far I know zebras don’t believe in Jesus. And the can be “homosexual.” hmmm….
@Candy I laughed obnoxiously loud at the following in your comment
“And please give me a break with all this “natural/unnatural” stuff. We are not amoebas.”
LMAO touche!
Again, people’s faiths are very important to them and a journey one has to make for themselves. A non-believer doesn’t have one piece of a right to insist a believer disregards scripture X (because they do not like it) any more than they have a leg to stand on to insist a believer disregards prohibitions against murder, stealing or having sex with animals. People are not making things up or pulling them out their @sses as the words are there:
“You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.” – Leviticus 18:22
“If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.” – Leviticus 20:13
“…their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.” – Romans 1:26-27
As I’ve stated before, it is not my belief that gays/lesbians are unnatural and on their way to hell. However, to call people “ignorant” for relaying what is in the scriptures, in addition to slobbering things like “you’re an ignoramus and homophobic @sshole” because someone is Christian and adheres to what is written, keeps the conversation at the same stalemate.
Adulterers are not put to death nor fortune-tellers stoned so, obviously, religious text has to be read and meditated on with an open heart and time, place, location, situation and circumstances all taken into account. Reconciling all these things is the challenge for Christians, and *I think* what the author was asking believers to consider, but the purpose of studying scripture is for comfort, understanding, guidance, lessons and peace for self — not to gather information to bash anyone or damn others to hell.
People also twisted what’s in the bible (Jewish authorities turned Jesus over to Pontius Pilate who ordered His crucifixion) to justify centuries of anti-Semitism (still do), persecution, pogroms and the holocaust/murder of millions — so were Jews as a group supposed to ditch their Talmuds and Tanakhs and cease believing? Nope, they recognized it for what it was — @ssholes defiling the Word for their own benefit. Christianity arrived in Africa (Egypt, Ethiopia etc.) about 30 years after Christ’s death and before it spread throughout Europe so, because a group twisted scripture to erroneously justify their oppression of others (i.e. Trans-Atlantic slave trade), all scripture is discredited and everyone should have stopped believing?
I’d like clarification – only from rational and intelligent gay/lesbian/bisexual readers that are able to maturely and calmly discuss – on exactly what it is their community wants. Is the desire that Jewish, Muslim and Christian believers denounce their faith beliefs (all of which basically state the same thing on the matter)? How would this work considering the fact that there are gay and lesbian Christians? Regarding “heteronormative,” if gays/lesbians constitute only 10% of the population, how else are most things to be but reflective of the 90% that is the vast majority? It seems being supportive of equal rights for gays/lesbians is not enough for some, and they want to dictate thought and spirituality. …not.going.to.happen!
One commenter (The Mrs.) clearly stated that she would not welcome people like me and mine in her home. She’s not the only one who feels this way but – as long as she and anyone who share her feelings stays in their lane and are not hurling vicious names, grabbing a bat to bash on the streets, or voting to deny my and others’ equal rights – da hell do I care? Why the heck should anyone care?
It is selfish and unfair to demand believers (or those with opposing views) give up all their beliefs and replace them with yours (generally), so what I’m trying to understand is why supporting LGBT’s rights to legal unions, equal protection, adopt children etc. is not enough.
wow, because i am angry at people saying with a straight face that homosexuality is borne out child molestation, is completely based on lust, sex and is deviant form of sexuality that perverts choose, that homosexuals are incapable of having real relationships and falling in love, and that our affection should be hidden from children i am not rational, intelligent, nor mature. oh please, akai. who the f**k do you think you are? who the hell do you even think you are to deem me unintelligent? there you go being a pompous ass again. while you’re being one, instead of telling the person who’s constantly being insulted by willfully ignorant people to correct their tone, why don’t you tell the willfully ignorant to cognizant of their tone and what they are saying.
and also while you’re being a pompous ass read this:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/24/the-tone-argument/
*to be cognizant
and i’m not going to stop calling a spade a spade because of someone’s religious beliefs. whether you are a traditonal christian or not, if you truly believe in some of the things i’ve stated above, even if they are based on your religious beliefs, you are believing in and are espousing homophobic beliefs which hurt gay people.
and you are so rude yourself, i SERIOUSLY find it laughable that YOU of all people think you have a leg to stand on to even tell people to correct their tone.
http://theangryblackwoman.com/2008/02/12/the-privilege-of-politeness/
some of the links i have provided are mainly discussing racism, but can be applied to any margainlized person replying to a non-margainlized person about something biased they have said.
@ Sloan (think that’s right) Since no one else on here wants to say it, I will say it, Homosexuality is a perverted spirit. That will never change. God was around even before the bible was composed, and he knew that this spirit, along with so many others, would come into play the way it has. He knows that there are gay ppl who have never been molested, he knows that there are gay ppl who have a great heart, he knows. However he still gave you the choice to do what you want to do. I don’t believe that homosexuals go to hell simply because they were gay, but because they continue to be too prideful to just trust that what he said was wrong, is wrong. Whenever anyone chooses to entertain a sinful spirit over what God has told them you then chose to go against God. And if you are not serving him you are in fact serving the devil, be it blindly or willingly.
I said it before and I’ll say it again, God loves us even when we don’t acknowledge his existence, doesn’t change the fact that he loves us. But what I really want you to understand is that you need to get a relationship with God for yourself, and this doesn’t have anything to do with “the church” this has to do with your relationship with God because you’re obviously irritated and hurt in some way shape form or fashion by a lot of the things that Akai said.
@Akai, something I had to learn a long time ago the hard way, you have to give everything and every teaching with love. You cannot go at someone cursing and ridiculing them even if they don’t believe what you’re saying. If you are going to teach someone on God and what it really means to be Christ like then you have to live it first. Christ did not go about cursing folk out, and he was entitled if no one else is. When you do things like that it makes you look VERY hypocritical and God is not pleased.
and with that akai, i’m done addressing you on this thread. i do happen to think that you are intelligent, but if you are hellbent on believing that religious backed ignorance should go unchallenged, go try and find another “gay representative” who will tell you that they aren’t bothered by some of the things said in this thread so you feel better about taking that stance.
Sloane said: “Yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo yap yickety yick yck yackity yoo.”
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Ego much? If the m*therf*****g shoe fits, then wear the b!tch!
I don’t recall putting your name anywhere in my comment but, since you asked, nope, I don’t find you intelligent at all…merely common, immature, reactionary and uninteresting.
Maybe you fancy yourself the only gay person on the planet (or the only one that can name-call and be insulting) and spokesperson for their whole community, but you’re not so get over yourself because no one is intimidated.
There are those really trying to learn and reconsider on this issue so why don’t you get out of the way, STFU, and let people hear from other LGBTs that are able to have civil and mature conversations.
And “who the f**k do” I think I am? I’m the chick that has zero interest in what you have to share, don’t give a sh!t what you have to say, and turned off to your never-ending hysterics, name-calling and angry screeching long ago. It’s blazingly obvious this is also the case for several participants in this thread so…
…a buh bye and kiss my beautiful caramel-coated @ss!
actually, akai, i’ve never tried to paint myself as a representative for the lgbt community nor have i said that the gay community was a monolith, but i can tell you’ll be hard pressed to find the “gay representative” you’re searching for who isn’t suffering from some kind of self-hatred that wouldn’t BE INSULTED by the bullshit said in this thread. and no you didn’t say my name in your asinine commentary but you DID REFER TO ME, on a public commentary board, and i’m free to respond, so don’t play yourself.
“However, to call people “ignorant” for relaying what is in the scriptures, in addition to slobbering things like “you’re an ignoramus and homophobic @sshole” because someone is Christian and adheres to what is written, keeps the conversation at the same stalemate.”
AND
“I’d like clarification – only from rational and intelligent gay/lesbian/bisexual readers that are able to maturely and calmly discuss – on exactly what it is their community wants. ”
i’m sorry were you saying that bullshit about someone ELSE?
and am i stopping other lgbts from speaking their piece, no. and guess what? i don’t care if you have interest in what i have to say. i’ll be saying what I FEEL regardless of what queen akai wants….so you why don’t you drink a big glass of stfu, you arrogant pompous ass, because you concentrating on my tone as opposed to the truth of what i’m saying has contributed less than nothing to the conversation, and has actually reinforced people’s ignorant notions. and again, i find it HILARIOUS, that YOU of all people has the bitch ass nerve to call someone else out on rude behavior. rude and conscending is your main mode of speaking. i mean you really tried to tell me that you somehow knew better about homophobia then i did, SOMEONE WHO EXPERIENCES IT EVERDAY, because you have relatives that are gay. don’t get hit by all the glass falling around that huge caramel head of yours, hypocrite.
Wear it bitch? I guess the Christian left the motherfucking building. Don’t say you’re a Christian then turn around and be un-Christlike. It’s fake, ugly, and gives all Christians a bad name.
What’s that Ghandi quote again?
Who called
that trickanyone a “bitch”? Anyone with basic reading skills can see the statement reads “wear the b!tch,” so get it right!Anyway, I’m laughing at the antic of looking right over one individual name-calling several commenters “ignoramus,” “ignorant homophobe,” “pompous ass” – as they dropped a load of sanctimonious bullsh!t claiming to be “rational” and opposing people with “human decency” – to yap and misquote a statement.
It’s always unwise to speak about “Christ-like” when one, obviously, doesn’t know what they’re talking about. The Man I know was many things and there were times (when people were out of order) when He got angry, knocked sh!t over, made a whip, started whacking and wrecked shop. (John 2:13-16)
look you pretentious little sh*t, i never claimed moral superiority over anyone, you and the ignorant homophobes you keep defending did, so don’t be shocked if someone ELSE calls your dumb ass out on your hypocritical behavior. you have added nothing of value to this discussion. all you contributed was distracting white BULLSH*T noise about my “tone” and reassurance that any ignorant bottom feeding rumor someone heard about gays was okay because they learned it from “the church”. like people are going to have a sensible, rational conversation based on human decency one person is using SCIENCE, REASON, and PERSONAL EXPERIENCE to back up their thoughts and other people are using religious doctrine from two millennia ago. at least all tiffany w. got wrong was the word, DEFINITELY not the intent, and she was right, you sure aren’t acting christ-like when your egocentric ass jumps on your high horse and you go off on someone using PLENTY OF EXPLETIVES OF YOUR OWN. you’re a pompous, pretentious, arrogant asshole. did i say something that wasn’t true? i don’t think so.
not to mention your pretentious bullsh*t you tried to pull by claiming some kind of authority on what is homophobic because you have gay relatives and you don’t think that they would find some of the things said here offensive, which is the equivalent of “i have black friends and they don’t find the racist things i say offensive at all” excuse. b*tch, please.