Victim Blaming By Any Other Name Is Still Victim Blaming
Ironically, one of the most ignorant posts I’ve read in recent weeks appeared on a blog that goes by the name of “Very Smart Brothas.”
In an astoundingly insensitive article, aptly titled “Rape Responsibility — And The Fine Line Between Victim-Blaming and Common Sense”, The Champ, a blogger on the site, decided to tackle the subject of rape and why women, in fact, do hold some responsibility for sexual assaults against their person.
He found his inspiration from a post written by writer Zerlina Maxwell for Ebony.com titled, “Stop Telling Women How to Not Get Raped.”
In Maxwell’s article, she brilliantly states why society’s misdirected venom towards “unladylike” women is endangering potential victims:
“Our community, much like society-at-large, needs a paradigm shift as it relates to our sexual assault prevention efforts. For so long all of our energy has been directed at women, teaching them to be more “ladylike” and to not be “promiscuous” to not drink too much or to not wear a skirt. Newsflash: men don’t decide to become rapists because they spot a woman dressed like a video vixen or because a girl has been sexually assertive.”
Even though The Champ agrees that statistics revealing that 1 in 5 women will become victims of a completed or attempted rape in their lifetime are horrific, he draws the line at agreeing that men, and men alone, are responsible for women being violated, stating that women should employ a modicum of common sense when dealing with their baser male counterparts:
“Why can’t both genders be educated on how to act responsibility around each other? What’s stopping us from steadfastly instilling “No always means no!” in the minds of all men and boys and educating women how not to put themselves in certain situations? Of course men shouldn’t attempt to have sex with a woman who’s too drunk to say no, but what’s wrong with reminding women that if you’re 5’1 and 110 pounds, it’s probably not the best idea to take eight shots of Patron while on the first, second, or thirteenth date? Yes, sober women definitely get raped too, but being sober and aware does decrease the likelihood that harm may come your way, and that’s true for each gender.
“It seems as if the considerable push back again victim-blaming has pushed all the way past prudence and levelheadedness, making anyone who suggests that “women can actually be taught how to behave too” insensitive or a “rape enabler.” And, while the sentiment in Maxwell’s article suggests that victim-blaming is dangerous, I think it’s even more dangerous to neglect to remind young women that, while it’s never their fault if they happen to get sexually assaulted, they shouldn’t thumb their noses to common sense either.”
And this is where the waters get treacherous.
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if you aint deaf and I say no, that’s it.
you can’t control your d!ck, I can’t control my itchy trigger finger.
and even deaf folks can understand body language
@NinaG
SERIOUSLY!!
A whore’s uniform makes you a de facto whore; hence, the resultant treatment. Unfortunately, a great deal of our women lack the ability to carry themselves with style and grace, which may beg for the need of such a “behavior modifier.” Sounds harsh, but such “modifiers” may have a place in our community to enforce that fact that their are no individuals (contrary to what society says) and the community is in desperate need of women with style and grace.
Carry on.
Dont forget we are also in need of men with stature and strength. Im sick of seeing black men dressed like thugs with their pants hanging down. This statement goes both ways
“if you aint deaf and I say no, that’s it.
you can’t control your d!ck, I can’t control my itchy trigger finger.”
+1
@leonard Smalls
Go and call 5 women you know. Now statistically 1-2 of the 5 women you call has either been raped, molested or sexually assulted. Now, when the 2 admit to the crimes committed against them, ask them were they dressed as whores or were they drunk.
I’ll wait….
OK, now go and call 5 more women you may know, this time call your daughter, your mother, your aunties and nieces. Ask them have they been raped. Once the 2 admit to the crimes committed against them, alert them to your generalization that their garb of choice was the de facto leading to what happened to them.
Carry on
ALSO @leonard Small
F YOUR I
even whores, dressed as whores, and selling sex… umm… you still have to ask permission before you delve into their fruits of nature. Bring your wallet.
I think there’s a distinction to be made between looking out for your own personal safety and victim blaming. I am careful about my safety and would teach my daughter the same thing. Telling my daughter “Don’t catch a ride from a strange man because there are a lot of monsters out there” isn’t the same as saying “If you catch a ride with a strange man you deserve what happens to you.” It’s a subtle difference, but has a huge impact on the amount of blame assigned to rape survivors and perpetrators.
I think victim blaming happens very often with statements like:
-”Why were you at his house so late if you weren’t trying to have sex?”
-”What were you wearing?”
-”Surely you must have said something to lead him on.”
-”She’s a slut anyway. She probably wanted it.”
-”She didn’t fight hard enough/scream loud enough/run away so she must have wanted it.”
-”She shouldn’t have been walking home alone at night in the first place.”
…and I’m sure I could think of many more. Statements like this make it seem like men are some kind of wild animal that can’t control itself and shouldn’t be expected to.
Of course there are rapists out there, so we women need to remain vigilant about our personal safety. We have to make judgement calls about when it’s safe to take public transportation, walk alone, invite a man into our house, get in a man’s car, etc. But just because a woman makes an error in judgement and lets her guard down for one moment around the wrong man at the wrong time doesn’t mean it’s her fault for not protecting herself.
We need to stop looking so hard for ways to put the blame on the victim. All it does is prevent women from reporting their rapes and allows rapists to go free.
Agreed.
There’s a difference between, “She shouldnt have benn out that time of night,” than, “Be sure you dont get into the car with unknown men.”
Agreed! I often wonder why is this such an issue? Why is there so much back and forth an heated discussion on such a simple topic. As long as there is evil in the world we can never live in a utopian society which means we are always going to have to do our part in protecting ourselves. That mean we should attempt to conduct ourself in a way were we are consciously aware of our surroundings-in the end if one is victimize its not their fault but lets do all WE CAN to keep ourself safe because honey, If someone attempts to rape me i won’t go down without a fight!
I really and truly don’t understand what was so terrible about The Champ’s post. I’m a huge fan of VSB and have lost no love for them due to this “scandal.” As I understand it, he was never trying to say that women who get themselves into less-than-safe situations deserve to be taken advantage of. THAT is victim-blaming, and I didn’t see any of it in his post. All I saw was the same advice my momma gives me whenever I’m going out: be smart, and be careful. We obviously need to switch from being a culture that teaches “don’t get raped” to being a culture that teaches “don’t rape,” but I don’t think that promoting safety amongst women is necessarily antithetical to that endeavor, ESPECIALLY when we non-forcible rape into consideration. By that I mean, like, A and B meet at a bar, get drunk, go home together, and shit goes down without enthusiastic consent and neither A or B know what to think about the situation in the morning. I think that suggesting that the entire onus of responsibility for that situation falls onto the responsibility of the man (if we assume this is a heterosexual encounter) is JUST as dangerous as the female-blaming society we’re trying to grow out of. I think that the most productive step our society could take towards rape prevention and overall healthy sexual living would be to promote responsible sexual conduct for people of all genders: that means more than just drilling into people’s heads that “No means no,” but rather introducing more nuanced understandings of consent, and the ability of persons in various conditions to give consent. If, for example, due to excessive amounts of alcohol consumption, neither party remembers what happened after a night of sexual activity in which enthusiastic consent wasn’t given (because enthusiastic consent can’t really be given if you’re blacked out), why is one party any more responsible for the night’s events than the other? OBVIOUSLY when one party forces him/herself onto another party, the victim bears zero responsibility for the situation, but there’s a lot of grey area between forcible rape and consensual sex. I think it’s perfectly healthy to suggest that, if it takes two informed persons to have consensual sex, all persons should assume at least a little bit of responsibility for making sure they can make informed decisions regarding sex.
I get incredibly frustrated listening to people (usually men) try to justify why they are in the right to partially blame women for their rapes because in some aspect of it they might have failed to demonstrate sufficient common sense. Mainly because that puts women in the position of never ever being able to make any mistake without bearing “partial responsibility” in their eyes for something only the rapist had the power to prevent.
Most women hear from their mothers from a very early age all the things they need to say and do and be in order to not be victimized and most women seem to internalize them and do their best to remember and follow all of those strictures even when it is incredibly difficult, even when they are young and silly and dumb and don’t always think things through.
But there are still so many mistakes a woman can make that would make her in the eyes of men like “the Champ”, partially responsible for her own rape and that I can’t accept.
You want to attract a man? Be sexy and appealing but not too sexy – make sure your outfit isn’t too tight or low or high and don’t wear too high of heels or you won’t be able to outrun an attacker! Flirt but keep in mind at all times that you don’t flirt TOO much or he might interpret it as you “leading him on”. Be open and honest about your life but don’t let him know TOO much about you or he might be able to find out where you live on the Internet and rape you. Be careful not to leave your drink alone so he can’t slip something in it even if there is an emergency or you’re trying to relax from a hard day and have a good time. Be vigilant! But not distrusting or suspicious – dudes hate that. Always know exactly how much you can drink without being too tipsy. Keep in mind that screwing up and drinking too much because you had a horrible day, are at a celebration, are surrounded by people you believe you can trust, or just plain overestimated how much you ate or how much liquor you can hold is a screw up that entitles men like the Champ to assign partial responsibility for your rape to you. Remember to always be in at a decent hour…hopefully you have access to reliable transportation 24 hours a day, right? And if you HAVE to be out at night, make sure you always have two or three backup plans so you are never alone. A nearby and trustworthy friend to call (one that you know won’t rape you!), the cash to hire a cab, etc. But not too much cash. That might be an invitation to get raped AND robbed. Always lock your windows and your door and a backup security plan would be smart – what kind of dumb, broke bitch just has simple latches on her windows that any rapist can smash and break? Jeez. Talk about an invitation to be raped. Also, remember to keep in mind at every point in your life that if you do get raped your entire history, sex life, work life, what you have worn and said, is all fair game to a defense attorney so for the love of God live like a nun. Oh and when you end up getting raped (like most rape victims are) by someone you know and trust…well, shouldn’t you feel like an idiot for trusting him? Just because he’s your brother in law, your uncle, your boss, your childhood friend? You’re supposed to be a sweet, charming, relaxed, friendly, smiling, optimistic, suspicious bitch that never forgets at any point in time that any man be a rapist.
Men like the Champ will never have to think like any of the above unless he gets sent to prison. Whereas their wives start teaching their daughters to think of all of it at about the age of 12.
+1 YES!!
@ Peaches , First of all I wasn’t addressing you but since referenced what I said to SUNSHYNE84 .I stated that it is a shame how some women excuse this type of behavior (I am paraphrasing here) that comment was not inclusive to SUNSHYNE84 .
The reason I commented again was because at the time when I was writing my comment she was the previous commenter . Now when I posted it , African Mami had already posted , therefore she was the previous poster .
Please don’t try to put words in my mouth sweetie . I agree with what she said about women using better judgement , that is all . IT STILL DOES NOT JUSTIFY RAPE !!!
Ok , who want next ??????
Champ is saying naivete on the victims part is a get out of jail free card on the aggressors part.
GTFOHWTBS
Wait. I’ll spell that one out.
Get The Fcuk Outta Here With The BullSh!t
Wonder if he felt this way if it was his daughter who cut school to chill at a boys house and she got gang raped.
Most rape victims know their attackers so it has little to do with skimpy clothing and putting oneself in a scary situation.
You can teach all the personal safety tips you want, men are still responsible for raping women. In the end, it is the man who makes the conscious decision to do it. And for me that breaks down into a moral issue.
You lack respect for someone else’s body if you think, under any circumstances, it is acceptable to rape them.
I appreciate that the author is arguing against the idea that a woman revealing her body will increase her likelihood of being on the receiving end of sexual violence. However, I’m concerned that the statement the author makes about the status of women in the middle east might be Islamophobic and inaccurate. Women there are not the ‘most subjugated and cloaked’ – women all over the world suffer because of sexism. Perhaps cultural difference allows us to notice sexism more readily in other people’s cultures. It is of course true that women in the middle east ALSO ‘face the most horrid and violent atrocities’ as do women in Australia, Indonesia, Nigeria or anywhere else in the world.
When the author says, “alpha-male domination disguised as religion and culture…” I really hope that she doesn’t mean Islam in its entirety, because clearly Islam is much more than “alpha-male domination” and it is a real and rich and highly diverse religion that has links with many different cultures. I think it might be good for the paragraph in question to be reworded, as I’m sure this was not the meaning the author intended to convey.
Well the solution is clear: Lock up the cookie jar like you do your house, car and other things you buy. /sarcasm/ I know my body belongs to me, but all these comparisons of “you lock your car to be cautious, so be cautious with your body” are just disturbing. I mean I promise if I could remove my goodies and lock them up with the push of a button or turn of the key and then go dancing I WOULD. This take precaution, use common sense thing isn’t victim blaming, but I think it leads to victims feeling shamed enough were once it has happened to them they don’t report it. I mean if u left your car running in the middle of the night unlocked and it was stolen. I am guessing you would still call the police and report it, right? Plus cars, cd players and tv’s are items that are physically no longer there so it’s theft. Rape has more of an assault feel to me. And I am pretty sure since 1 in 5 women are raped that means at least 1 in 12 men are rapists. Just kidding!!! No one in this society cares about the stats of how many men are rapists and if they do they certainly don’t advertise it like they do the stats of how many are rape victims. Now I honestly and truly want some because my homegirl is having a party and these comments have me worried that I may not go out after dark because I need to be cautious and lock it up like my car
the author never addressed what was so wrong about Champ’s post. his words do not even slightly suggest victim blaming. He never says that women that put themselves in the position they are in, deserve what they get. I will definitely teach my nieces not to get drunk with some guy and to take measures to reduce the chances of getting raped, robbed, kidnapped, and murdered. Following the logic of the author, I wouldn’t advise anyone to lock their doors, learn self defense, not walk around campus alone at night, or not hitch rides with strangers in cars with bumper stickers that read “no means yes.” Telling someone that they can reduce the likelihood of being raped is empowering; focusing only on the predators just isn’t very effective.
“the author never addressed what was so wrong about Champ’s post. his words do not even slightly suggest victim blaming.”
@Ravi
I mean why would Kirsten have a problem with another ““I don’t condone rape, but she shouldn’t have done x,y,z . . .” screeds ? So, you mean to tell me that because Kirsten didn’t preface her stance with the sentence, “This is what is wrong with Champ’s post . . .” You couldn’t grasp what she thought was wrong with Champ’s piece? What about that whole sixth paragraph? Did you just miss that?
____________________________________________________________________
“Even though The Champ agrees that statistics revealing that 1 in 5 women will become victims of a completed or attempted rape in their lifetime are horrific, HE DRAWS THE LINE AT AGREEINGTHAT MEN, AND MEN ALONE, ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WOMEN BEING VIOLATED.
____________________________________________________________________
Champ writes . . .
____________________________________________________________________
“Why can’t both genders be educated on how to act responsibility around each other? What’s stopping us from steadfastly instilling “No always means no!” in the minds of all men and boys and educating women how not to put themselves in certain situations? Of course men shouldn’t attempt to have sex with a woman who’s too drunk to say no, but what’s wrong with reminding women that if you’re 5’1 and 110 pounds, it’s probably not the best idea to take eight shots of Patron while on the first, second, or thirteenth date? Yes, sober women definitely get raped too, but being sober and aware does decrease the likelihood that harm may come your way, and that’s true for each gender.”
____________________________________________________________________
DRUNK WOMAN AROUND MAN =/= MAN WHO ASSAULTS HER. Understand? Unless a drunk/intoxicated woman is assaulting someone, ala those chicks at McDonalds that got beat with the metal pole, then a woman being drunk around a man is not acting “irresponsibly” nor is her drunkenness on par with a man raping her, and yet right off the bat, Champ tries to equate the two by setting up that wack-@ss analogy “Why can’t both genders be educated on how to act responsibly around each other,” and then uses the “drunk rape” scenario to support his sh*t. Like really though, WTF? It’s a woman’s responsible duty towards a man not to be drunk around him because such female drunkenness provokes that man to rape her? For realsies?
You can’t, on the one hand, reprimand women for provoking rape, or, in this case, point the finger at women for not using “common sense” (i.e. drinking Patron with the fellas, or whatever tacky @ss example Champ used) and then turn around and say that a victim isn’t at fault for being raped. By Champ’s logic, (and yours since you’re co-signing him), the victim would be at fault for provoking the rape, and that’s why such logic is victim blaming. There’s no gray area. It’s one or the other, fault or no fault, and Champ asserts that victims who “lack common sense” are in fact, partially to blame.
Jaybee already touched on this before. You wanna have a discussion about self defense and personal safety, fine. You can do all that would without implicitly or explicitly blaming women for being raped, and that’s why Champ’s sh*tty @ss piece fails, because it conflates the two issues.
And for you to be coming up in here with that car, door, lock, analogy, when the comment right above yours ( no less) just shoots that down. I mean . . . why? You’re usually a smarter cat, you know?
I was going to say the same thing about you, usually being smarter and all.
“I mean why would Kirsten have a problem with another ““I don’t condone rape, but she shouldn’t have done x,y,z . . .” screeds ? So, you mean to tell me that because Kirsten didn’t preface her stance with the sentence, “This is what is wrong with Champ’s post . . .” You couldn’t grasp what she thought was wrong with Champ’s piece? What about that whole sixth paragraph? Did you just miss that?”
I’m thinking you just didn’t understand what I wrote. that’s the only logical explanation for this response. I’m saying that the author did not show that Champ’s piece was wrong. the author did nothing to refute his primary point — that women can exert a measure of control over whether or not they are raped and that this fact has nothing to do with blame. nothing in the authors words invalidate any aspect of this point. this has nothing to do with prefacing her stance with that sentence.
the excerpt you copied is exactly what i’m talking about. she isn’t refuting anything. she makes assertions about Champs whack analogy but then fails to actually make an argument as to why he might be wrong. the author completely missed the point. in order to properly refute Champ, she would need to show that a woman that gets drunk has no greater chance of being raped than a sober woman. She would also have to show that no action a woman can possibly take, could somehow diminish her probability of getting raped. The argument has nothing to do with provoking rape. that’s called a straw man argument. by my logic and by my explicit statement, a woman is NEVER AT FAULT FOR GETTING RAPED. any assertions you make to the contrary of my explicit statement is a failure on your part to understand my argument.
this is a conversation about self defense. in no way shape or form did i blame anyone for being raped. my analogy was flawless, your comprehension of my analogy, apparently less so. and for you to come on here making comments and hurling insults when you clearly don’t even understand my point, I mean … why? I’m always a smarter cat. if you ever get the feeling otherwise, then you just aren’t understanding what i’m saying.
when you want to have an intelligent conversation, then ask me for clarification on what you don’t get before making ASSumptions. also, before you respond, please go read up on the difference between but-for causation and proximate causation. you might actually understand what I’m talking about if you understand this distinction.
“I’m thinking you just didn’t understand what I wrote.”
@Ravi
I’m thinking that you’re backtracking and better mansplaining yourself because the sentence of yours that I quoted and responded to “the author never addressed what was so wrong about Champ’s post. his words do not even slightly suggest victim blaming,” was pretty straightforward and easy to digest. What didn’t I understand about your saying that Champ’s words don’t even slightly suggest victim blaming? Now that I’ve solidly refuted all that, it’s “I’m thinking you just didn’t understand what I wrote” and “women can exert a measure of control over whether or not they are raped and that this fact has nothing to do with blame.”
First of all, yeah, suggesting that women can exert a measure of control over whether or not they are raped does have to do with blame, and I’ve already explained why.
And even Champ refutes his own premise when prior to launching into his “common sense” tirade he wrote, “I know that rapists are going to rape regardless of how women decide to dress, what (and how much) women decide to drink, where women decide to frequent, and what women decide to do. For rapists, all a woman needs to do to “ask for it” is be born.” . . .
____________________________________________________________________
“in order to properly refute Champ, she would need to show that a woman that gets drunk has no greater chance of being raped than a sober woman. She would also have to show that no action a woman can possibly take, could somehow diminish her probability of getting raped. The argument has nothing to do with provoking rape.”
____________________________________________________________________
Cute. And where are Champ’s numbers stating a drunk woman has a greater chance of being raped than a sober woman? Since “drunk rape” is the only rape scenario that Champ alludes to, then where’s his proof that the majority of reported rapes even involve alcohol? He provides no such evidence, but it’s so nice to know that Champ, with his one anecdote, is irrefutable and infallible unless Kirsten can offer empirical evidence that Champ himself never bothered to provide in the first place. Is there some reason why only Kirsten has to offer such evidence to be credible and not Champ? Let me guess. It’s because Champ wrote first, right? Oh, but then again, he didn’t because Champ was responding to another article written by someone else.So please explain to me why his opinion is supposed to hold so much more weight?
While a large percentage of reported rapes in the US do involve alcohol where both assailant and victim had been drinking (47%), 17% of reported rapes occurred when just the assailant was drinking, and ONLY 7% of rapes occurred when only the rape victim had been drinking.
http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Similarities_And_Differences_In_Women_s_Sexual_Assault_Experiences_Based_On_Tactics.pdf
Based on those numbers, it’s the PERPS who run the risk of being irresponsible while intoxicated, not the victims, and that number (47%) is probably as high as it is because most of those drunk rapes occurred on college campuses, and arguably, there’s more attention paid to rape among college women than any other population demographic, but was Champ even referring (exclusively or otherwise) to college women when he offered his anecdote? After all, the median age of the average US woman in 2010 was 38, and how many college parties or dates among college students involve shots of high end, Patron brand tequila? That whole line alone, about the 5’1” woman and the Patron shots let me know, right then and there, that Champ was making up sh*t off the top of his head, but here you are co-signing it like it was gospel.
What common sense measures should those victims who were raped without being under the influence have taken to “exert control” over the situation so they wouldn’t have been raped? And no, your car, door, analogy was far from flawless because most rape victims aren’t raped by strangers. So, the men most likely to rape your nieces are men they would already unlock their homes and car doors for anyway. And you’re talking about how Champ’s piece was about self defense, like Champ was telling women to take karate and carry mase (LOL). He told women to have “common sense” and stop getting drunk. The end.
____________________________________________________________________
the excerpt you copied is exactly what i’m talking about. she isn’t refuting anything. she makes assertions about Champs whack analogy but then fails to actually make an argument as to why he might be wrong.
____________________________________________________________________
Oh, you mean like page 2 of the article in the first paragraph where Kirsten pokes even more holes in Champ’s logic than in the sixth paragraph of the first page, when she writes . . .
___________________________________________________________________
“It might behoove The Champ to understand that in some middle-eastern countries — where women are the most subjugated and cloaked — they face the most horrid and violent atrocities. Alpha-male domination disguised as religion and culture have paved the way for the rape of women to be deemed a man’s birthright, and speculation about what role a woman’s sobriety plays in her victimization only exacerbates this faulty logic.”
____________________________________________________________________
Maybe those subjugated, cloaked, raped women were drinking, or they didn’t lock their car door, or their house door . . .
Try reading the sentence in bold below which states, “Lack of common sense should not cancel out common courtesy and respect.” then refer back to Champ’s paragraph about how supposedly lacking “common sense” makes women partially culpable in their own assaults. Then, read the sentence after that where Kirsten writes,
____________________________________________________________________“Thinking anything to the contrary (women aren’t responsible, not even partially responsible, for being raped) is archaic and dangerous, and suggests that men are incapable of rational thought. The only thing that separates humans from animals is conscience – and by The Champ’s definition, men should not be expected to have one by default.”
____________________________________________________________________
I mean, I could continue, but if I do, I’ll run the risk of highlighting the article in full.
I thought it was pretty easy to digest also, but your reply doesn’t make sense as any sort of refutation of my argument. The sentence you stated as a preface to the original authors post makes no sense if you understand what I was actually stating here. The only explanation that I could come up with for your reply is that you just didn’t understand what I meant. No need to back track, just go back and make sure that what I originally stated was clear.
when you stated “You couldn’t grasp what she thought was wrong with Champ’s piece?” this also showed that you didn’t understand what I was saying. I clearly grasped what she thought was wrong with Champ’s piece. I’m saying she never made an actual argument to refute it. There is a difference between saying that Champ’s piece is wrong and actually making an argument that refutes what Champ was saying. My point is that the author never actually made an argument.
You quoted two of my sentences and it should have been pretty clear based on my last message, which of the the two sentences I didn’t think you understood. I never stated that you didn’t understand that I was maintaining that Champ wasn’t victim blaming. You still haven’t refuted a thing. show me where Champ’s statements blamed rape victims.
suggesting that a woman can exert a measure of control over whether or not she is raped absolutely does not constitute blaming the victim. You have offered no argument that supports such an assertion. if what you were saying were true, women would not be encouraged to take self defense classes, scream out for help when being attacked, walk home from classes in groups at night, not accept open drinks from anyone, etc. All of these actions reduce the likelihood of being raped, therefore empowering a woman to exert a measure of control over whether or not she is raped. so unless advising women to do any of the above actions constitutes victim blaming, then you are wrong. That would be an argument. Here is RAINN’s material on more ways to reduce the chances of being raped:
http://rainn.org/get-information/sexual-assault-prevention
Is RAINN blaming the victims by putting out such info?
and what premise did he refute? that quote shows exactly how he is not blaming the victim. he explicitly states that women are not asking to be raped no matter what they do. this pretty much proves my point.
logic is always cute. champ doesn’t need numbers to substantiate that claim. his claims about alcohol have nothing to do with the majority of rapes. if even one woman gets raped while drunk, then his statements are valid. I never said that she has to offer evidence, i said she has to offer an argument. She never bothered to. attempting to refute someone’s argument can’t be done by just saying “you are wrong.” you are once again, completely mischaracterizing what I argued. bringing up evidence doesn’t even make sense in light of what I wrote. Champ’s logical flow connects his premises that women that aren’t drunk have a lower a chance of getting raped and that there are actions that women can perform in general that reduce the chances to of getting raped to his assertions that common sense would lead a woman to protect herself in any way she can. in order to challenge his argument you would need to find some mistake of logic or simply to deny his premises. This has nothing to do with evidence. As I was saying before, you just didn’t understand what I was saying.
the relative numbers of drunk to not drunk rapes have nothing to do with my argument. if .0001% of rapes occur with the survivor being drunk, it still would not touch my argument. you are completely missing the point. statistics have nothing to do with his argument nor mine for that matter. the only question is, does being sober reduce an individuals likelihood of being raped? Are you really arguing that a sober woman has a better chance of fending off an attacker than an unconscious drunk woman?
the basis of comparison of my analogy had nothing to do with strangers, so yes, my analogy was flawless. It was comparing the fact that even though actions can be taken to prevent a crime, the victim is still not to blame. The fact that you brought up strangers shows that you simply did not understand the analogy. as for the common sense measures a woman can take to reduce the chances of being raped, visit the link above or just google sexual assault prevention. the very existence of sexual assault prevention groups demonstrates that women can be empowered to reduce their likelihood of being raped.
it’s not about the men that are most likely to rape my nieces, it’s about decreasing the likelihood of being raped in any given situation. I’m not saying that Champ’s piece was about self defense; i’m saying that the logical extension of your criticism is like saying that self defense is useless in preventing rape. any refutation of Champ’s piece is necessarily arguing that women can do nothing to reduce their chances of being raped. if self defense can help women fend off attackers, then what champ says has validity. he didn’t list all of the measures that could be taken to reduce the chances of being raped and his argument didn’t require that he do so. His argument just holds as an axiom that women can do something to reduce their chances of being raped. that could mean self defense, but it could also mean not drinking to the point of passing out in a room full of strangers.
i’m looking for any point in time where she pokes holes in his logic. She fails to do so and seems to miss the point much like you seem to. the quote about middle eastern women has no impact on Champ’s argument. in what way does it refute anything? how does this show that an unconscious drunk woman has less a chance to fend off a rapist than a sober woman? it just demonstrates that the author doesn’t understand the points of contention.
read that sentence before. that’s what i’ve been talking about. that statement does not address what Champ actually stated. He isn’t arguing that a woman has culpability. you made that up. nowhere in the paragraphs quoted above does he even slightly suggest that a woman is culpable in being raped. this is what you call a straw man argument. nobody is talking about blame. he is arguing for taking common sense measures that the author even agrees should be taken.
“Yes, it is reasonable, even necessary, to teach our young girls common sense; but, it is not reasonable that we must do so because the mere sight of their breasts and drunken state brings forth urges so strong that men can’t help but viciously attack at the slightest hint of vulnerability.”
she should have stopped after the common sense, because that was the entire point. teach girls commons sense. that’s it. all this other stuff about a woman being blamed for her own rape doesn’t make sense. no one is arguing that.
so, yeah. please do continue. you still have yet to refute anything from Champ’s piece or anything I’ve said. You are just attempting to put words in my mouth and completely mischaracterize the argument.
If women want to help stop rape they can start by changing the way they treat sex – stop using sex as medium of exchange, ie something that a woman sells to the highest bidder she can attract.
It’s one thing (mostly – a bad thing) to create an artificial consumer appetite for your junk goods, but when you commodify human NEEDS, eg – the need for intimacy, so that love and sex are reduced to mere services that people provide for money then you’re asking for trouble.
It’s very easy to understand once you’ve connected the dots.
Sex, like everything else, becomes something you can only have in exchange for something, usually money.
If you already have a social context where gender roles dictate male largesse to females then it’s not a huge leap from that to turn sex into some that men buy and women sell.
It really shouldn’t be any surprise then that certain attitudes will arise in such a context. Maybe a sense of entitlement to sex if you’ve paid good money for a date.
The flip side of that may be a sense of disentitlement and exclusion if you don’t have anything to exchange for sex – eg money, status, looks, popularity, youth etc . .
which leads to the dysfunctional behaviours that come with deprivation.
So who’s being blamed – NOW? :-) (no- not them) well not only them . . .
I blame the system and EVERYONE for allowing an anti-human system to do these things to people.
Now this could be bullshit of course but before you dismiss it as bullshit consider this -
There are parts of the world where only up until recently – rape was unheard of.
how come?
because sex is not a commodity in those societies, its value is purely personal and biological – not commercial.
No no porn industry, no cosmetics industry, no ‘white standards of beauty’, and no social isolation brought on by family breakdown – none of that shit.
and gues what –
no one gets raped.
Food for thought I’d say.
But if you’re a FASCIST, no-good doer, you’d rather control people with force than liberate them and make them SAFER with justice..
There is a whole lot wrong with your “opinions” (in quotation marks for a reason) but I’ll just address this gem:
“There are parts of the world where only up until recently – rape was unheard of.
how come?
because sex is not a commodity in those societies, its value is purely personal and biological – not commercial.”
You made that up wholesale. There are indeed societies where until recently there was no such thing as rape. The reasons for that are many and varied but no reputable scientist has deduced any of them are the ridiculous reason you gave. In some of those societies there was no such thing as “rape” because women were obligated to have sex when the men demanded it (which means there was indeed rape by its technical definition just not a legal one) and in many of those groups rape was so incredibly stigmatized, such a horrific crime that a person could commit, that nobody wanted to take the risk of raping someone and being shunned, killed, or exiled from the group. It’s a shame we don’t take the latter approach in our own society but with people like you running around I guess it isn’t a surprise.
cantarah
Well there are flaws in every opinion – I guess that’s why they’re called opinions, but since many of mine of are unconventional and therefore mostly unheard, they at least deserve some air time.
You’re talking about societies where rape is simply not acknowledged, nothing to do with what I’m talking about.
I’m talking about societies where rape is unknown because no one rapes anyone, in any sense of the word – be that meaning to sexually violate someone or to exploit or violate them in some non-sexual way – because they are societies that have none of the exploitative systems that organize western ‘civilization’.
In the few remaining hunter gatherer societies in Africa for example, where people still go about naked, no gets raped. Human relationships are egalitarian and consensual rather than hierachical and coercive.
Go figure.
:-)
Your opinions can get airtime, that doesn’t mean they deserve a sugarcoated response. In the societies where rape was unheard of and still is rarely heard of, rape is an incredibly stigmatized crime. As I already explained. You trying to divorce the fact that in those societies rape is treated far more seriously and punished far more harshly than it is here and concluding (with no evidence) that that isn’t the reason there is no rape there, there is no rape there because you feel that sex there doesn’t carry any commodity aspects is a bridge ridiculously too far.
But in the interests of fairness, how about you name a specific society to use as an example for your thesis.
cantarah
Ok we’re going around in circles sweetie, coz you’re kinda – not listening, so have a look at this link, use it as an intro to further reading on the subject of -
RAPE societies like the US vs
NON-RAPE societies such as the Mbuti in Africa.
http://www.csub.edu/~jgranskog/inst205/benderly.htm
Passive aggressive responses are in poor taste. FYI. I’m not your sweetie and you should be more appreciative that anyone is even bothering to respond to your ridiculousness.
You seem to believe based on your own “opinions” and maybe one anthro class in college that you can rewrite the history of gender relations as the world knows it and nobody will know better. Mbuti society was indeed pretty much rape-free for a long time…and trying to divorce that from their overall attitude towards gender and their attitude that gender driven violence such as rape is totally unacceptable because it’s convenient for you to do so is reprehensible and has no basis in science. Any Mbuti man who raped a woman historically was driven out and thus starved to death – meaning they took rape seriously. They didn’t make excuses for it by saying “Well, if women would just not use sex as a COMMODITY they wouldn’t get raped.”
cantarah
You’re responding to what i’ve said because you percieved it as threatening enough to your assumptions, prejudices and hatreds to challenge – so don’t act like you’re doing me a favour -
sweetie.
oops – woman.
I see your kind of ‘flog em , castrate and hang em’ ideas re. how rape should be dealt with as threatening enough to want to challenge them which is why I contributed to this discussion.
So
you’re saying that rape doesn’t happen Mbuti society because rapists are expelled from the tribe.
Uh?
The only reason rape doesn’t happen in a society is that the punishment for it excludes the criminal from society?
Well you have the death penatly in the states for murder and expulsion penalties for rape (jail) where people are removed from society and yet America has the highest murder and rape rates in the world.
Ok let’s say America sent all its rapists to live in Canada, by your reasoning – that would end rape in America.
pah – this is silly,
you’re too angry to be reasoned with.
And btw – I didn’t say that women are to blame for rape, I said –
“I blame the system and EVERYONE under its subjection, for allowing an anti-human system to do these things to people.”.
But your comment has no value. It does not address taking what is not yours, whether I price my goods or not.
Oh so “raping” a whore is only a crime against property – theft?
then the punishment for stealing sex from a whore should be same as you’d get for stealing an apple from a store –
$2 fine, with time to pay.
LOL!
smh
A YO! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
IF I WAS A WHORE, DRESSED AS A WHORE, ON WHORE STREET, WITH A SIGN THAT SAYS “IM WHORING”
YOU STILL HAVE TO ASK ME FOR THE AS$ .
YOU CAN’T TAKE IT! AND YOU HAVE TO PAY!
HELLO… MC FLY!!!??
Why waste your time replying to his comment? You just supplied him with the fuel he needs to continue his crap. If you ignore him = no fuel= he will go away.
True, you being a whore means the only question someone has to ask is -
how much?
but then you kinda devalue yourself when you make yourself an object that can be bought – not the best way to teach other people how to treat you.
Like I said get mad at me all you want but you aint stoppin rape anytime soon. If rape is as widespread as women claim -
what you gonna do – lock every man up?
@SM
I’m not mad at you. I wasnt even replying to you. @oneshot assumed that
But your comment has no value. It does not address taking what is not yours, whether I price my goods or not.
Devalue, value or evaluate, it’s not yours for the taking.
I was commenting to leonard small. my post just happened to come after yours.
don’t TAKE it personal
..
But your comment has no value. It does not address taking what is not yours, whether I price my goods or not.
Oh so “raping” a whore is only a crime against property – theft?
then the punishment for stealing sex from a whore should be same as you’d get for stealing an apple from a store –
$2 fine, with time to pay.
LOL!
smh
then the punishment for stealing sex from a whore should be same as you’d get for stealing an apple from a storeThis is not accurate.
There is no punishment for stealing sex from a whore because whoring is illegal.
The law cannot be used to enforce illegal contracts.
So nobody has to pay a whore a damn thing.
You can’t take what’s not yours.
That’s stealing.
That’s as simple as I can put it for you.
Little kids can understand that.
@ ?iq
>i>looking directly into your eyes and smiling benignly with a tinge of sadness and regret
I hate it when I win so easily – feels like I “took” everything from someone who had little to give.
poor ting.
Must remember to only unleash the power stored in ethical black manhood in defence of The Weak
not
against Them.
What did you win?
You cannot take what is not yours.
What did you win?
And what are you talking about.
I am not ignorant, I don’t understand your comment.
What did you win?
Please elaborate
Did you win something that wasn’t yours?
What did you win?
let me point the idiot who wrote this article about her over generalization of middle east. Its hilarious how you point out that woman are more likely to get raped in those countries when the highest rapes are committed in the united states of america.Rape can happen anywhere in th world so trying to scapegoat how woman who cover more are victimized is an over simplification.educate yourself every four minutes a woman in America is being sexually assulted lived in bahrain for four years and never felt the “victimization of women” in muslim countries but that doesnt mean it doesnt happen, there probably are cases that it does.
cassie
Good post
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/01/afghanistan-violence-against-women.html
QUESTION…
There have been many cases in my area (N. Chitown) of women who were drunk as a scunk walking alone after midnight being raped. After hearing these cases. am I wrong as a parent to say to my daughter, if you find yourself in that situation, call me, I will pick up no matter what? The reason why I would do that is because the possibility of rape, robbery, murder crosses my mind. The amount of education a man receives is not my concern when it comes to my child.
People only need to understand one thing. Rape is not about sex but a violent dehumanization of a person. The sexual act could just as easily be replaced by a gun.
So the victim of a rape is no more liable than the victim of a murder.
This is such a ridiculous argument it astounds me. And we have it over and over again.
Possibly this might be a problem with intent and tone. There’s clearly a big difference between a man saying:
1. That bitch wouldn’t have gotten raped if it she wasn’t dressing like a slut!
versus
2. A woman is not responsible for her rape, but there are clearly certain risk factors that increase her chances of being raped such as jogging at midnight in the bad part of town.
#1 is only said by a small minority of ignorant men or trolls, #2 is what a majority of men are saying. Feminists seem to only hear the #1′s.
The only reason this issue is so complicated is because of female privilege. I recently saw a video of a man telling a group of young men to stop talking or something and they responded by beating him up. The blogger who posted it said it was terrible what happened but at the same time the guy should’ve known better than to tell a group of shady looking guys with tattoos and all that to be quiet.
Was that victim blaming? No, I don’t think it was. It’s just common sense, we feel sorry for the guy at the same time he could’ve easily avoided his fate by using some common sense. This is all what men (and many women too) are saying about rape minus the jerks who post ignorant stuff like #1 which all reasonable men disagree with.
Also, RAPE IS ABOUT SEX. The meme that Rape is about Power, not Sex is just feminist propoganda. Because if you’re a feminist it’s not in your interest if rape is framed as sex or lust because then it would be something inherent in the nature of men and that’s impossible to eradicate. But if it’s the patriarchy/rape culture causing men to rape women then that’s something that can be overthrown.
If rape is about power and not sex why are rapists overwhelmingly young men (when their urge to have sex is strongest) and most victims of rape are overwhelmingly women in their peak productive years (between 15-35)?
And if you’re going to counter my last point please give me a study, not some personal anecdote about some old guy who raped or a old woman who got raped, we’re talking about the AGGREGATE.
A friend just gave me this today, and I think it brilliantly summed up our thoughts on this topic…
“If you lock the door to your house, it doesn’t necessarily prevent your house from being trespassed and burglarized. If that happens, of course its not your fault. But it’s still good to lock your door.”
by that idiotic reasoning, i guess women should lock their p ussies.
and people who live in “bad neighboorhoods” should have multiple locks…or maybe they should just move into a white neighborhood…
i hope your friend understands that locking up the house may prevent entry, but the p ussy is open, no matter what you have around it
so much for analogies
Your goods are “open,” so you can’t take precaution by keeping yourself out of situations that may lead to forced entry? That was what the analogy was about. It’s about basic common sense and good judgement. Refusing to acknowledge that women (along with every human being) need these two things to SURVIVE, is detrimental to YOUR safety.
That is, if you care about it.
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