Like the rest of the diaspora, Brazil has had a complicated relationship with race. Although the country claims to be a “racial democracy” and boasts one of the largest black populations in the world, the country struggles with racism and prejudice much like its American counterpart.

Recently, the New York Times published an article about Brazil’s booming modeling industry, but as Erica Williams of the Ms. Magazine’s blog points out, things aren’t always as nice as it seems.

As the NY Times piece mentions, model scouts in Brazil routinely try to find women with “the right genetic cocktail of German and Italian ancestry, perhaps with some Russian or other Slavic blood thrown in,” but the reality on the ground is much different. Brazil is a country that boasts a large contingent of brown bodies, and over the years, darker skinned entertainers have been making headway in the country’s media. But in spite of this movement toward more inclusive images, the models that come out of Brazil have overwhelmingly European features.

One fashion expert calls the practice of presenting only European-esque models embarrassing: “I was always perplexed that Brazil was never able to export a Naomi Campbell, and it is definitely not because of a lack of pretty women,” Erika Palomino, a fashion consultant in São Paulo, tells the NY Times. “It is embarrassing.”

Williams argues that the big booty (often times brown) women used to market the country to tourists (men) are not the same women exported to the fashion industry for one reason only: Women of color are good enough to sleep with, but are rarely considered beautiful.

She explains:

Ironically, while scouts search Southern Brazil for women of European descent to fit into their standard of beauty, European and North American men travel to the northeast of Brazil seeking sex with women of African descent who they imagine as hypersexual. 

Walk to any newsstand in Salvador da Bahia and you will find dozens of postcards that use images of black women scantily clad in bikinis to “sell” the area to the rest of the world. This is nothing new. The figure of the mulata, or mixed-race woman of African descent, has long been represented in Brazilian popular culture as the epitome of sexiness. Exported abroad as early as the 1970s in Oswaldo Sargentelli’s world tour of samba shows featuring mulata women, now the term has become synonymous with “prostitute” for many European men who travel to Brazil for sex.

So, while women of African descent in Brazil may be considered “hot” or “sexy,” they are not considered “beautiful” enough to be models. In fact, as Barrionuevo states, “more than 70 percent” of Brazil’s models are from the “three southern states” that have had the heaviest influx of European immigration.

  • Rayna

    Can I get an Amen?! Brazil isn’t that much different from the USA

  • andryce76

    Really?
    Brazil isn’t any different than anywhere is in the world
    White is still the standard of beauty to some people
    Brown skinned or darker skinned women are just as beautiful
    women of color need stop letting whites validate their self worth

  • golden_girl

    Amazing how men will travel thousands of miles for sex. Not love but sex.

  • dhonesty1

    and we can thank the black men for this as well..

  • Mr. Man

    Wow so sad but unfortunately nothing new…

    After reading this though the first thing I thought of was:

    “Go!! and fullfill your most erotic desire, and when you get back you will marry Imoni”
    – Coming to America

  • Mr. Man

    U sound mad, real mad….

  • df

    don’t care what lies the media and the public try to push down everyone’s throats, women of the african diaspora are beautiful and NO not just the women with european features….we all are….sick of the BS lies. Not paying attention to it anymore.

  • PGS

    Wow. You hate black men that much, eh?

    As much as you might like to blame it on the evil black man (maybe next time?), I think we can blame white supremacy for this one.

  • PGS

    I believe that is the point of the article…

  • dhonesty1

    nope Mr. Man, i’m not mad.. why would you think that?! I am tired of black men embarrassing themselves though.

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    OOOOOOHHHH Yussssss! This is a concept well worth exploring and a discussion that we need to have. I have made an observation throughout my life that the number 1 compliment I receive from men is that I am sexy and/or they love my walk, I rarely heard the words beautiful or pretty until I moved out to the west coast. For the record I am a black woman with heavily afro-american features, wide nose, thick lips, brown skin and I am far from facially challenged. I am beautiful, as all black women, all women are, but my particular type of beauty has always been peculiar in this nation and it will never be honored universally like other types of women. This is a conclusion that I have drawn after years of living and interacting with human beings. I remember being 18 and being very angry when I started making the connections between the past (slavery) and the present. I wondered why every time I received a compliment from a man, usually a black men, it always began with the root word sex, sex-y lips, sex-y walk, just plain sex-y. But never beautiful. My body was exalted, never my face. And I am not alone in this, and the wonder why hyper sexuality is such a problem among our youth. The cold hard truth is that Black women were the original whores of this land, white women were the original beauty queens. So yeah we’re sexy, to let history and science tell it we’re hyper-sexy, and hyper-masculine too. Our bodies, our booty’s, our natural rhythm has always, and still brings, all the boys to the yard. But are we beautiful? To whom? Any ones opinion but our own shouldn’t be relevant in the matter.

  • http://purplekeychain.blogspot.com purplekeychain

    This doesn’t sound any different than how sh*t is done in the US.

  • dhonesty1

    @ PGS, u know i re-read my comment and i didn’t see anything saying that “i hate black men”.. nope, not at all.. i love me some black men but i am embarrassed by some of them..

    i would like to see them respect black women more.. that would be nice.. maybe other races would too if they took the lead..

  • QON

    I heard a Brazilian saying once, “White woman for marriage, mulatta woman a for sex and a black woman for work.” Then i thought, well where did the mullata women come from?

  • http://www.thecolorcurve.com TheBlackGuy

    As a black man, I apologize for this type of stuff. This is real. We as brothers have to take responsibility (RESPONSE ABILITY) for this instead of blaming black women or white supremacy for this. How pathetic are we to really BLAME white supremacy? That’s like retreating and admitting we don’t run anything.

    It’s black males who fly to these islands to smash and it’s black males who talk trash about black women in magazines to television shows to rap songs. It’s black males who lie and manipulate to get in the drawls and then fall over in love with a white girl. It’s black males who allow the rest of the world to pick on black women and make them look bad, with them only defending themselves.

    So yeah, I’m a guy. And yeah this article is right. And yeah, black men are wrong. It’s nothing bad to take responsibility. We give our power away the more we blame. And then wait on that entity to do something, which never happens, which is why we’re here. So, as a black man that doesn’t participate, I’ll say, SORRY. And now, let’s start building each other back up.

    And yes, black women are beautiful AND sexy. ;-)

  • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

    1.) Beauty is relative. How and why a person buys into limited thinking of abiding by somebody’s standards is beyond me. A non entity at that.
    2.) If woe unto you, you feel slighted-support YOUR magazines-ESSENCE, Afripop, blah blah!
    3.) President Obama is still president of the United States of majority whites and flairings of minorities, here nor there….
    4.) I’m suffering from an overload of race/racism related issues. Can ya’ll bring sexy back!

  • PGS

    “That’s like retreating and admitting we don’t run anything.” – TheBlackGuy

    Umm….we don’t run anything, though.

    White Supremacy is real and it permeates our entire culture/society. It’s like the Ozone layer….it’s always there, no matter how damaged.

  • Socially Maladjusted

    Ok so once black women get their turn at being white people’s “standard of beauty” – then what?

    Will that end white supremacy?

    black america got its turn in white people’s white house and all that did was pacify a global opposition to white supremacy that was reaching critical mass.

    kiss teet

    dyam foolishness

  • Sath

    You know, as much as we would like to think that we don’t need others to validate who/what we are, it’s sort of counter intuitive. We want to be confident in natural selves, but there is so much evidence to the contrary. We want to believe that we are appreciated and valuable, but no one is breaking down the door to tell us so. Sadly, until the media starts showing more diversity we will always feel the need to bawk at the stereotypes pressed on us. Otherwise, young girls who haven’t hit the “Don’t give a damn” age feel like they’re lying to themselves and feel the need to torture and change themselves.

    Just like dhonesty1 said up top “And we can thank black men for this as well”. And it’s true. Rap and Hip Hop culture does not exalt black female beauty like they do sexuality (granted there are exceptions). I don’t think what she said was a man-hating statement, but an observation that black women don’t get any help from either side in regards to how they are viewed in the world.

    At the same time, however, we have to blame ourselves. We have to blame the misguided women who show up to these photo shoots and become video vixens for not putting self-respect and the images/esteems/ and lives of all the women they will come to affect before making a dollar. We have to blame the actors who take the stereotypical roles. . . etc. (Now doesn’t that sound deluded and unrealistic?)

    It’s depressing to think that we need “help”. Someone needs to go and sound the trumpet and tell people that it’s okay to find women of color attractive. That we need “help” from men to get other men to find us valuable. . .

    But what do you do about that? Beyond holding your head up high and doing whatever is in your power to be the best you can be? What can we do for ourselves in the shadow of so much diss and doubt?

  • Mariah

    We Black women are sexy AND beautiful. Forever and Always.

  • Socially Maladjusted

    Idiot

    what the hell are you on about?

    and please don’t think you’re fooling anyone with the “masculine” screen name. Your “man speak” imitation is the lamest I’ve come across in eons.

  • Wow!

    You sound extra-chivalous and I agree with you in regards to the beauty of black women but….we dont run anything. Even the brothers who “run things” aint running a thing – and I mean this from the top on down. Thats why few of them put their asses on the line and stand for anything.

    I agree with you in regards to the messages in the music and magazine….but to put all of this on black men is not completely accurate and Im not sure it is helpful. On the flip-side black men are in fact seen in a similar light as black women. We ALL are reduced to parts and bits when it comes to white fascination with our sexuality and culture.

    Your argument is not very far off from the folks who say that Trayvon Martin’s death is a result of the way black men carry themselves in music and videos and other areas. Sure, that plays a part, but it excuses the ignorance and motives of the persons in control of the gun/media.

    Despite all of that I am sure the sisters approve of your positive message about them. I do too. But the healing you speak of will not happen by looking at one side of the coin. We need to all ask why the hell does what they say or think about how we look matter so much to us?

  • Socially Maladjusted

    granted, you do look like a man judging by your photo – but not a pretty one even then.

    :-)

  • Wow!

    Im gonna play the game and I hope you do as well. After all, its about growth and understanding.

    Do you think the way whites view black male heterosexuality in a way that is not fetishized? Do you believe that black women are sending out great messages in regards to black manhood? Are those messages always loving? What is the most recent song you can remember hearing a black woman hold black men up as a standard (I cant think past Badu’s “Soldier”)? Are other ethnic groups’ men responsible for the way white people fetishize them? Are the negative views of black men around the world the fault of black women?

    I ask you these questions because with all do respect you seem very thirsty for the makers of the beauty standard to include you in it….with our help of course. In fact considering black men – good black men – cant even keep America from killing/arresting/ fearing us, how do you expect us to do this?

  • Mr. Man

    @dhonesty1

    It was what you said and how you side it, a blurt if you will.

  • MayDay

    Do you know why white men are privileged and so powerful? Because they put their race of women on a pedestal.
    That’s how you win.
    Doesn’t matter how average looking or ugly she is (I’m looking at you Sara Jessica Parker), they will put her on that pedestal and make thirsty coons like YOU worship her.
    Again,that’s how you win.
    Make YOUR race of women the standard of beauty, uplift her, make her out to be a Goddess, that’s how you win.
    That’s how you gain power. That’s why the white woman is the standard beauty today. That’s why black males worship the white man’s daughter,sister, wife…Until black males start uplifting THEIR race of women, not a damn thing will change!

    Everyone knows this. No one respects the American black man anymore because A) They don’t respect themselves and B) They don’t respect their race of women.
    The self hatred is so deep, they are breeding themselves out of existence as we speak.
    Put this in your calendar: In 50 years African Americans will no longer exist.
    AA negros will be in History museums and a long distant memory.

    Until black males STOP hating themselves nothing will change for the black community. Right now, black males are conquered men and instead of building their community up, marrying their women and stop having out of wedlock children, they choose to hand over all of their resources to the white man like a bunch of spineless coons.
    And you wonder why black women don’t respect black men – This is why!

    Everyone else, Hispanics, Asians etc They all have ONE thing in common. They uplift their women. They don’t talk sh*t about them, especially not to other races!

  • jamesfrmphilly

    black women are both sexy and beautiful.

  • CHE

    CUE THE CRAZIES AND THE BBMs(bitter black men)

    Im not even reading the comments to this
    Black women….PRACTICE INDIFFERENCE…..like you invented the word.

  • Sath

    Nope. Point missed. I wasn’t referring to myself at all. And the point of the article is currently the view of women. I understand completely that it is a two way street and that we should “support each other” males and females. But if you read into my snark, I was trying to point out that the expectation of having someone to blame was wholly unobtainable, because really it’s everyone’s problem. Perhaps I didn’t make that clear. Too busy waxing poetic, as they say. I personally could care less what the standards of beauty are. I got my man — married. I don’t buy magazines and fashion means ish to me. But the souls of young black women are a serious concern of mine. I care about their healthy self image.

    My point is that we (as a collective–not I) will continue to revisit this issue (on both sides since we want to include both genders) until someone decides whether or not they need the media to validate them. These articles are written because of the need for validation. It stems from a place of wanting someone to acknowledge what we in our hearts should know is true. We really should find a better way of displaying the more positive messages that exist out there. That way young black women will have more to read than “People think you are ugly and suck even though they don’t know you, simply because you’re black”. I didn’t even mention what white people are thinking– as if I even could fathom. . .

    And we know the relationship among black men and women is damaged. I’m sure there are as many articles on that as there are on the acceptance of black beauty.

  • NoitAll

    Excuuuuuse me? All these “brothas” that go down to Brazil looking for the light skin women with big asses who can drop it like its hot. Brazilian tourism is big among Black men for that very reason. Yet, you don’t control anything? Is that a white man buying your plane ticket? Is that a white man sitting in your seat? Is that a white man unzipping your pants…? There is one thing you alone control, your dick. You can’t blame white supremacy for that.

  • Socially Maladjusted

    I can’t believe the stupidness that comes out of people’s moufs over -

    stupidness.

    Today pettiness is over the idea that white men (and some black men apparently) find black women good enough to sleep with but not good enough to walk street with.

    Well ok

    White women (and some black women apparently) will find a black man good enough to marry if he has money but will completely write-off the same man off if he has –

    NO MONEY.

    Don’t hear men crying about women not making poor men the ideal of manhood.

    kiss teet.

  • Socially Maladjusted

    The only bitterness I see is in an article boo hooing over black women not getting enough love from white men –

    yes yet another one.

    That’s where the craziness that’s about to unfold got started.

  • NoitAll

    I should have said, your penis. i think its a little ridiculous to use derogatory terms for body parts. Apologies.

  • gmarie

    We can be whatever it is we want to portray (individually). It is possible to be both..

  • http://frugaljana.blogspot.com FrugalJana

    Change happens one person at a time. As long as the Niki Manaj’s, Rihanna’s and Beyonce’s of the world become the media’s standard for Black Women, we will collectively be seen as sexy and not beautiful. Stop supporting those that further perpetrate this media perception.

  • The Taker

    I think beauty is subjective. I have gotten everything from “Hey beautiful”, to “Wow, you’re are pretty”, or “lil’ cutie”, and “Girl, you so sexy” from all races. I think within each “race” and culture, beauty is defined differently. Black women are super sexy and super beautiful. And I don’t think all black men are caught up in the whole “euro-centric” ideal of beauty. I’ll even go so far as to say very few black men think that way, but I’m just basing that off what I see and hear everyday. All I know is that I’M beautiful and that’s all that matters. I have stopped paying attention to what “they” define as beautiful because honestly what “they” define as beautiful, to me is not, far from it actually.

  • Yb

    You really need to dig deeper into history if you think those three women are the reason we are oversexualized and will continue to be.

  • Grant

    When the most powerful man in the free world cannot comment on how blackness relates to the death of a teen, you know we don’t run stuff.

  • http://www.thecolorcurve.com TheBlackGuy

    SMH. Well there you go… I’m an over-chivalrous guy who’s not a guy but maybe a guy who isn’t pretty… what?

    Like I said, this is response I get when I say to black men to take responsibility. No one wants to do it! Blame blame blame. You get to run stuff and you get power when you uplift women. That’s how white men do it you DUMMIES.

  • Tonton Michel

    As long a black people accept and keep trying to live up to other people’s standard of beauty while refusing to accept what is valued in their own community your going to get these issues. There is a mental yoke put on us through the media, with no small help on our own part, that constantly tells us we are not up to “standard”. Have to shrug that off.

  • maria

    I find this article very interesting because this is exactly the opposite of whats going on in high-fashion. I am a devout follower of fashion and I literally read about 10 fashion blogs a day, from which I have observed:

    -White women (and light latinas) are waaaaay more sexualized than any other race. It is very rare that you see Black or Asian women in a nude, bondage or trashy-party themed editorials, but these are very common for white models.
    -Asian are considered the most beautiful. They are most commonly used in makeup and hair photography that taken close-up. Images are always very classy and even sometimes mysterious/majestic.
    -Women in black editorials are usually either very classy (often with vintage glamor) or very lively and funky, with models in bright colors/ prints. Black women are almost never portrayed in minimalist or lightly-themed shoots. Black women are definitely considered beautiful though, but the standard of black beauty are very very high.

  • maria

    I find this article very interesting because this is exactly the opposite of whats going on in high-fashion. I am a devout follower of fashion and I literally read about 10 fashion blogs a day, from which I have observed:

    -White women (and light latinas) are waaaaay more sexualized than any other race. They are portrayed in more revealing clothes and more sexual positions. It is very rare that you see Black or Asian women in a nude, bondage or trashy-party themed editorials, but these are very common for white models.
    -Asian are considered the most beautiful. They are most commonly used in makeup and hair photography that taken close-up. Images are always very classy and even sometimes mysterious/majestic.
    -Women in black editorials are full of character and personality. They are usually either very classy (often with vintage glamor) or very lively and funky, with models in bright colors/ prints. Black women are almost never portrayed in minimalist or lightly-themed shoots. Black women are definitely considered beautiful though, but the standard of black beauty are very very high.

  • TypicalBlackWoman…

    Thank you, Yb.

  • Socially Maladjusted

    You get to run stuff and you get power when you uplift women. That’s how white men do it you DUMMIES.

    This nonsense could only come from the most foolish type of woman.

    No

    you get the power to run stuff when you work with your women folk CO-OPERATIVELY & COLLABORATIVELY to uplift your COLLECTIVE condition.

    Never heard of any freedom or power that was obtained by uplifting women and ignoring all the other IMPORTANT stuff.

    btw white men’s strength doesn’t come from uplifting women, especially his own – it comes from guns.

    Idiot

  • Socially Maladjusted

    Can’t complain about being oversexualized and not being the standard of beauty both. If you’re over sexualized it’s because there aren’t enough of you who aspire to something greater than beauty.

  • Yb

    @SM

    1st Read a book on sexual racialized stereotypes in American History going back as far as the 1600′s.

    2nd Read your dumbass writings before you press submit (cause NO ONE was complaining).

    Then get back to me.

  • golden_girl

    Very interesting point of view. Refreshing even; Uplift your women. Don’t talk trash about them. Marry them and stop having children out of wedlock. Simple but oh so needed to build a nation.

  • Sue

    Your comment is very interesting. I’m not a fashion connoisseur but I have noticed that black women models are portrayed in an almost regal like fashion. Indeed, the “beauty” bar is set very high. However, in other circles e.g. hiphop videos black women are still portrayed as this hyper-sexual beings.

  • Chrissy

    Im not a follower of fashion or anything but do you have the names of the fashion websites/blogs that you visit?

  • Joan

    Black women need to stop looking for validation from the fashion world. And the fashion world isn’t exactly a friendly place, even if you are white and have the right look.

  • http://method2hermadness.blogspot.com/ girlformerlyknownasgrace

    Well I think Black men are sexy too! Black love all day ‘er day!

  • MommieDearest

    “The self hatred is so deep, they are breeding themselves out of existence as we speak.
    Put this in your calendar: In 50 years African Americans will no longer exist.
    AA negros will be in History museums and a long distant memory.”

    This.

  • Kinectic

    And they’ll travel thousands of miles back and bring back those foreign diseases to us. Trifling and desperate.

  • ebony

    I do not care what anyone says. I know I am beautiful, I know many black women are beautiful. End of story.

  • Lyshebaaa

    That may be true of the black women who are already in the fashion world, but the article suggests that black and brown women are chosen for /accepted into /directed towards fashion far less than their European counterparts. Unless they posses a certain “regal photogenic” quality and often, some European features( which fashion editorials tend to conflate with regality anyways) then beautiful black and brown women are relegated to booty magazines.

  • QoNewC

    @MayDay

    Your comments are ahistorical and hysterical. So the Industrial Revolution, the Protestant Work Ethic, and representative Democracy had nothing to do with the priviledge positions of Whites in this world? Lets also remember that not all white men are priviledge and powerful. Ask the average Greek of Russian or Italian man how powerful and priviledge he feels. Than ask the average Japanese or South Korean how powerful and priviledge he feels. Read a book donkey.

    “That’s why black males worship the white man’s daughter,sister, wife…”

    All in your insecure and pathetic imagination.

    “Until black males start uplifting THEIR race of women, not a damn thing will change!”

    If only it were so simple. Youre letting you broken ego and spirit get in the way of real socio-politico-econimic advancement in the black community.

    “No one respects the American black man anymore because A) They don’t respect themselves and B) They don’t respect their race of women.”

    Black men havent been “respected” since time immemorial. Then again lots of races of men havent been respected since time immemorial.

    “The self hatred is so deep..”

    Mirrored only by your abject ignorance.

    “…they are breeding themselves out of existence as we speak.”

    How do you breed out of existence? Its becase you arent breeding that you would be bred out of existence. Look at Japan with a negative population growth.

    ” In 50 years African Americans will no longer exist.”

    You would have said that 50 years ago too.

    ” Right now, black males are conquered men and instead of building their community up, marrying their women and stop having out of wedlock children, they choose to hand over all of their resources to the white man like a bunch of spineless coons.
    And you wonder why black women don’t respect black men – This is why!”

    Black women also have children out of wedlock as well. Its not black men that are making Koreans and Indians and Arabs rich by giving their money away via beauty products and cheap greasy food. Black women’s respect is neither here nor there. Black men can do just fine without or without it. Trust.

    “Everyone else, Hispanics, Asians etc They all have ONE thing in common. They uplift their women. They don’t talk sh*t about them, especially not to other races!”

    It goes both ways doesnt it?

  • QoNewC

    @Socially

    Couldnt agree more. A bunch of bitter black woman upset that white men dont love them as much as they think black men love white women. It wouldnt matter if black men built an alter to black women and bowed before it five times a day. They believe white men are superior and his attention is the only attention that matters to them. They want to be where white women are and they are made that black men cant put them there. Well get a clue sista, no other woman is where the white woman is but they are doing just fine. Bare in mind this pathology only exist primiarly amoung black women in America. Black African women, for instance, have better things to think about.

  • Socially Maladjusted

    From where i’m sitting the percentage of black american men who are stricken with self hatred is no larger than that of black american women. For every self hating black american man – there’s self hating black american woman right next to him.

    You kinda ALL look self hating to non-american blacks.

    A real shame because black america used to be the capital of the African Diaspora, now you’re like the dysfunctional family member whose self destructive impulses threatens yourselves and the integrity rest of the family.

    What kinda healthy people want to be sex symbols for white men?

    Fix up black america.

  • QoNewC

    @Maria

    There was a bit of an issue some years back when Neomi Lenoir (mixed race French model) was photoed naked in an animal’s cage. However I think the reason why black women arent posed in riskty photos is because most of them are high fashion and dont have that commercial look, i.e. Alek Wek and other black African models. They have been desexsualized if you think about it.

  • Socially Maladjusted

    @QON

    They believe white men are superior and his attention is the only attention that matters to them. They want to be where white women are

    Yep – that about sums up this whole – “waaah waaah” white beauty standard” crap..

  • Socially Maladjusted

    @QON

    Have to say, when you’re good – you’re very good QON. I fear that It’s knda wasted on these lilliterates, but still a pleasure to read.

  • QoNewC

    Similar with the dubious tweet by Kevin Hart, and which athlete is dating who, this issue is really a non issue.

  • MrTruthTeller

    I been dating sistah’s for YEARS… believe me black women are beautiful and sexy. I can’t get enough. It’s like going in the best candy store on earth.

  • QoNewC

    @Kinectic

    Probably far riskier to have sex in DC than in Brazil. The World Health Organization has commended Brazil on being able to avert the disaster of HIV/Aids unlike other developing countries.

  • Nigerian sista

    Please stop!!

  • QoNewC

    @Socially

    A few black women dont want to let go of the Euro standard of beauty boogey man because they can rest so many of their failures on it. Its the same with some black men blaming “Da Man.” Seriously, let it go.

  • Wow!

    ” . You get to run stuff and you get power when you uplift women. That’s how white men do it you DUMMIES.”

    On a blog for women, feminist women living in America you offer this gem? We don’t take care of women in America….never have….otherwise white women wouldn’t be pissed of with white men as well.

    Judging by your comment and blog bruh you have proven that even the most well-intentioned folks have no clue. I’ll stay out of your lane, young Baldwin….

    @ Grant: “When the most powerful man in the free world cannot comment on how blackness relates to the death of a teen, you know we don’t run stuff.”

    Real talk for dummies, I guess….

  • Wow!

    “Everyone else, Hispanics, Asians etc They all have ONE thing in common. They uplift their women. They don’t talk sh*t about them, especially not to other races!

    If this is true why are all the groups of women you named rallying and organizing against their men. across the world?

  • leonard smalls

    Interesting comment; however, allow me to add the following:

    1. Percentages — Colored Americans make up just 14% of the population, but buy over 40% of its cosmetic products.

    2. Power — Colored Americans that are in disagreement with the beauty standards of the dominant culture arguably should withdraw their participation from such entity and embark on the long hard road of making and cultivating their own market where they can establish a beauty standard that they deem proper.

    3. Reality — Your adversaries can not be who they are, unless you are who you are. Hence, it is arguably unwise for Colored Americans to focus on the behavior of their advesaries; who should instead focus their efforts on changing themselves (i.e. stop whining and start competing).

  • jennifer

    I am with Nigerian sista please stop,the rest of the world does not think like that .I live in Sweden it is very different here they are not in to that Latina thing or vibe at all . And not anything South American when you hit the Northern part of Europe the game is different.Even people who come from South of Europe are treated different even if you have European blood like the women from Brazil it means nothing here . I am a Black American woman and when those women try to tell the European people here i have European blood they say so c est la vie baby.

  • HowApropos…

    “You kinda ALL look self hating to non-american blacks. ”

    …this coming from one of the biggest khoons on this site…go figure…

  • HowApropos…

    Q and Sm

    You to sure like to talk sooooo big, yet won’t be nothin with the African American experience.

    Interesting…

  • HowApropos…

    Then why are you on here if you’re so above all us?

    Do you even have a life outside your computer?

    Doubt that….

  • HowApropos…

    *without*

    funny how you feel the need to get on your high horse, but your black azzez sure like to come to sites made by black Americans to talk shtt.

    …very interesting indeed…

  • oknow

    u r so on point that i’m sitting @ my desk on fire.. my spanish friend said black men don’t date black women because they said they have attitudes including her black bf.. i told her 1st, everything that comes out of a black mans mouth is not law.. 2nd, i told her black men say they date ya’ll because ur submissive, she said she believes that they are.. what i told her is that black men who dog their culture of women are cowards and are self-hating POS. Anybody who talks about their race to other cultures is a sellout.. i am all for dating outside the race. but i’ll be damned if i’m gonna boaster about white men, asian men or hispanic men b4 i boaster about my own.. I don’t understand how women of other races deal w/black men who self-hate, i don’t understand how black men and these other women not see that if you have children–guess what— they are half-black, the very same race that your black bf seems to hate so much.. we are stereotyped so much that when they meet a black woman they think now we are trying to act white.. NO, it’s just that u may have met a black woman or 2 w/those characteristics and now it must apply to all black women.. it’s disgraceful that we now have to defend ourselves to other races, the media, the rap artists, the comedians, and now our on brothers and black men.. it’s disgusting.. ppl of other races will continue to treat us this way as long as our black men do.. i’m sure their mothers are proud..

    last point, i don’t think they see the damage they do when they have these other women thinking that they are better than us..

  • Perspective

    :-/

    You know sometimes I really want to give black women the benefit of the doubt sometimes, on this (its the media) and black women aren’t represented and all that. Which is true, but it seriously not just that.

    I mean look at the picture that is used for this article.

    1) Neither one of those women are “all that black” especially the one on the right.
    2) When trying to promote that black women are beautiful black women use these black women that are like 1% of black women in appearance, but then we they are talking about other things like in articles

    “What to do when the world feels too racist”
    “Not African enough in Africa”
    “Respect My preference” – she’s ight – hate the weave though

    These women are never up to the same caliber. I mean white media does the same thing with white women but when it comes to promoting black women’s beauty.

    We tend to gravitate towards the black women that are these 1%ters

    I mean seriously if most black women looked like the 2 above women – “WHITE GIRLS?! WHAT WHITE GIRLS?! – NO SELF HATE HERE.”

    But they don’t. Seriously no brothas are throwing that away – but black women will pretend like they do, or act like they’re in the same league as those women, and even I have an issue with the fact that YES I find those women attractive, but I know that MOST black women don’t even come close.

    WE HAVE A SERIOUS PROBLEM WITH THIS AND BLACK WOMEN’S PORTRAYAL.

    Throw up some white models – I could walk out my front door and fine a close second.

    Throw up some black models – … MANNNNN… there’s a huge gap between the average bw and these top shelf black women, and what’s messed up is that black women cosign this – boosting their egos – but then get angry when they discover they fall short.

    We need to start promoting how most African American women look and work with that – instead of sellin black men these Octoroons, or ambiguously black women, or in that 1% category, cause most sistas don’t look like that. Then when they discover that a brotha wants the 2 girls in the picture – the India Arie lookin girls or Keisha Coles sistas looking girls – are mad!

  • QON

    @oknow

    I get your point but im a hetero black female who has never dated a black woman and even I know they have attitude. Also lets not be the kettle calling the pot black. Black women can be fire breathers too. The worst of which is directed to thier own children. Im less concerened about the disrespect black men show to black women to non black women than I am about the disrespect shown to black to black children by black women.

    P.s. If you go on to argue black women are justified than so are black men. Whats good for the goose….

  • Perspective

    Finished reading the Article

    LOOK MAN! AA women need to focus on themselves and stop fighting for everyone else.

    Promoting Brazilian women isn’t going to help ya’ll – if anything your just goin to have AA brothas leap over you and want to get with those black women.

    Same with the East African women that AA black woman want to tout as the essence of black beauty.

    This isn’t going to help AA women and “THEIR” beauty.

    Let a brotha go out here and choose Afro Brazilian women over AA women – and it’s an F’in problem. I mean come on WE KNOW THIS.

    “Hmmmpppffffhhh he just likes her because her nose is straighter. – she’s mixed”

    “Hmmmmmpphhfff he just likes her because he hair has some curl to it….”

    bla bla bla.

    So I’m like why do black women advocate these women as if it’s going to bring THEM UP when MOST AA women don’t look like that – at all!

    FACEPALM.

  • Socially Malajusted

    @how slow

    I’m on here because it pisses you off.

    :-)

    and I reckon I do more livin loving working and studying in one hour than you do in a whole week – after all, all you’ve got is hatred and negativity for company.

    sorry.

    puttiny my smug face on.
    .

  • Perspective

    You would think that if we were going to promote BLACK BEAUTY – we would promote the most beautiful but homogenous black women – instead of – these

    “oh you go something in there don’t you?” looking girls.

    It really doesn’t help.

    Women scream self hate when it comes to black men – but seriously from what I’ve seen most AA don’t want to look like themselves independent of black men.

    They want to look like what they’ve been socialized to believe is beautiful and its always that Pam Grier looking black women with slightly LESS black features who passes as black because she’s darker.

    Yea I get it, but damn it sometimes. They’re such a small demographic of black women it’s insane. I’m like how does that help. In a contest against white women it helps, but once we come back down to the black community it’s like REALLY!

    for real!?

    HOW MANY BLACK WOMEN LOOK LIKE CYNTHIA BAILEY – is everyone going to tell me that that’s some EVERYDAY THING?!

    Cynthia Bailey?

    Most sistas look like Pheadra or Neene

    You damn right I want Cynthia Bailey…. Is that self hate? Have I been conditioned or socialized?

    What am I to think when even black women co-sign her – in a contest against white women – but then when they realize I’m not picking them, but I’m still focused on Cynthia its a problem.

  • Socially Malajusted

    @QON

    perfectly legitimate to blame the white men and white women for the problems they cause in the world,

    Whites and a great many blacks – like you for example – have no problem blaming blacks for everything wrong in white society and in the black community – so why does that principle end when it’s time to blame whites for the wrongs they do?

    Especially when we can prove quite easily that whites are the cause of the most the suffering in the world.

    You did well in this discussion, now you’re getting cold -

    again.

  • Socially Malajusted

    @how slow

    yeh but that still leaves the title for biggest COON open, you’ve won it every year of your life and you’re no-contest favourite to win it again this year and forever more.

    LOL!

  • Alexandra

    I assume that most Black women are aware of popular cultures perception of Black ‘beauty’, despite what some comments want to project. Why else would this be up for discussion? I think some Black people need to stop blaming Whites for why they can’t see beauty in themselves. This would still be talked about even if there wasn’t a White beauty standard.

    Even the preferred unofficial beauty standard in many Black communities is constantly discussed? Some Blacks could still argue that they are shunned by Black media.

  • http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com Elegance

    Okay, then what is the standard of beauty for Black people? From what I have seen and heard it’s basically the European standard along with a large behind.

  • Perspective

    The other issue when it comes to black women are high fashion – white societies categorization that women with curves ( not fat) but curves are associated with the lower classes, which is an indirect way to diss black women.

    White society will even throw away white women who are built like that. Then these same white or non-black women are used to promote the idea that black women can be phased on by another race of woman simply having ass.

    “I can get the ass without the attitude” which I’ve heard breathed by a few brothas, sadly.

  • Perspective

    I like Maria’s comment – Intelligent, well said, objective, and unemotional.
    Here’s some things that I have a bit of contention with, not you, just the whole beauty thing and some of the points you made.
    First let me address this “black women in high fashion thing.”
    Black PEOPLE are the face of poverty – that is part of the reason that black women are not in high fashion like that. Like another author wrote on Clutch when she went to Africa they expected her to be a baby mama or ghetto. This perception does not go with high class and high fashion. You have to have MONEY first in order to be seen or represented as high fashion which is supposed to represent luxury and leisure. Just wanted to point that out. It’s not just because “you’re black” its also because you come from a race that is “collectively poor!” and you want to be represented as luxurious at a white venue. Poverty and High fashion are incongruous.

    Back to Maria – I agree about white women and their portrayal and Asian women. However, I think the issue is that there is no balance for black women.
    Black women, unlike other races are not equally represented across genres.
    High Fashion
    Sexual Objectification (WHICH IS ACTUALLY GOOD IF YOU WANT TO BE DESIRED AS WOMEN – just not exclusively as sex objects)
    and Romance – Romantic roles. Love interest – not just A piece of ass.

    Romance is important because this is where the RESPECTABILITY COMES IN.

    I try to tell sistas the whole “Mothers of the earth” thing “RESPECT ME!” thing isn’t that great because MEN don’t want to sleep with the mother of the earth.

    Mother of the Earth is typically going to lose against the woman in fishnets and heels because that caters to a man’s libido.

    A lot of mothers of the earth want to be RAVISHED by a man but they don’t look RAVISHING. They typically look like they have poor hygiene and are vegans.

  • http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com Elegance

    I think that this is a great comment and I thank you! I think there are 2 type of people in this world. The first type are those who constantly act victimized (when nothing has happened to them personally), blame others for the their problems, focus on the past instead of the future, and wait in vain for other people to change before they take control and improve their own lives. These people hinder their own happiness and progress, state that they have no power, and show that they have no power because they never try to improve themselves or try something different. It is best to NEVER follow these people because they are pessimistic, self-defeating, helpless, and overwhelmed.

    The second type is like this gentleman. The world is unfair but based on education and knowledge these people realize that it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to change other people, so the best way to make changes is to CHANGE YOURSELF and allow others to react to you! So these people focus on what they can change and the resources that are available to them and they MAKE CHANGES in themselves and insist on changes in the people they actually have some control over (e.g., their children, family members, and close friends). YOU DO HAVE POWER! You don’t have to buy magazines that don’t showcase Black beauty, you don’t have to buy the music of artists who ridicule Black beauty, you don’t have to by the clothing of European designers who never employ Black women, you don’t have to shop in stores that don’t carry products for Black women, and you can use your dollars to boycott any company that disrespects Black women! You can also stop saying bad things about natural afro-textured hair or dark skin and stop saying non-Black women are better than your own women and stop reading blogs that say such things.

    All this White man is evil stuff won’t change anything because White people have no reason to change since they are in power! They only change to shut Black people up or because they feel guilty or that it’s their responsibility. Why are you waiting on your so called “enemy” to help you…that’s not what enemies usually do! Yet you continue to wait and complain to them while they ignore you and you continue to have a miserable life! If there is some White conspiracy to oppress Black people then you are letting them oppress you! Stop depending on them to save you and save yourself! It is IDIOTIC to listen to advice about how to succeed or find happiness from someone who believes they are powerless, helpless, and miserable!!!! They can only tell you how to be as powerless, helpless and miserable as themselves!!!!

  • http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com Elegance

    “Do you know why white men are privileged and so powerful? Because they put their race of women on a pedestal.
    That’s how you win.”

    It sounds like you’re saying they made White women into a “trophy” that males of all races compete for. Only the best men are able to obtain these “trophies” so they work hard, get education, get the best jobs, and the most power so that they can win these women. It’s motivation to be the best. White women are lucky that they are born as “trophies” and it doesn’t matter if they are unattractive or if they have bad attitudes and few good qualities.

    If Black women are not held up as “trophies” then many men will not have motivation to work hard, get an education, get the best jobs, and become the most powerful in order to win them. Any man with no good qualities thinks he can have a Black woman and doesn’t have to do anything to win her. Black women are not born with trophy status.

    I think then that Black women have to raise their standards and not date men who are not successful or those who are not willing to do what White men do to win women. Black women have to also raise the standards for themselves and try to become ideal (but Black) trophy women in terms of appearance and behaviour. Someone without the qualities of a princess should not expect to be sought after by princes. By doing this everyone will raise their standards for personal conduct and for the status of their partners.

  • Wow!

    Stop being difficult for no reason. I dont think he means Lil Wayne or Albert Haynesworth’s standards, or any half-wit athlete, rapper . Our own….for those of us who love black people and who want to black people to just be happy and powerful where ever they find themselves.

  • HowApropos…

    “yeh but that still leaves the title for biggest COON open”

    um, yeah…that’s YOU and queen mammy respectively.

    you think you’re somehow better but you’re just as ignorant and if not, more stupid.

    carry on, oh comedic COON!

    you do ur job well.

  • http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com Elegance

    Wow! I was not being difficult. Tonton Michael said “As long a black people accept and keep trying to live up to other people’s standard of beauty while refusing to accept what is valued in their own community your going to get these issues.” I keep hearing over and over that we should reject the European standard of beauty but no description of what is considered beautiful in a Black woman. If we reject the European standard then we need a Black standard..or should we not try to be beautiful at all?

    Black women want to be beautiful too. If Black women look at the women Black men go after then it seems like light-skinned, biracial looking women, with long straight or loosely curled hair, and large backsides are the “Black standard of beauty”. That is what this whole article is about! The fact that Black men endorse this standard of beauty and Black women feel it is impossible to live up to that standard! If people start saying there is a different standard and start actually liking women women who meet that standard then the “Black standard of beauty” will change.

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    this is deeper than eurocentric or afrocentric concepts of beauty. This is about self-worth and it’s about the young queens coming up after us. I could care less about grown folks with inferiority complexes and unresolved childhood trauma. What I do care about is the perpetuation of inferiority complexes and unresolved childhood trauma. I’ve noticed most people want to pass off discussions like this as being a non-issue and/or black people doing another poor me. Eff that. As far as this issue is concerned everybody knows that if beauty was a dodgeball team the black girl is getting picked last. Just read your boy Perspective’s comments above. And I quote

    “I mean seriously if most black women looked like the 2 above women – “WHITE GIRLS?! WHAT WHITE GIRLS?! – NO SELF HATE HERE.”

    But they don’t. Seriously no brothas are throwing that away – but black women will pretend like they do, or act like they’re in the same league as those women, and even I have an issue with the fact that YES I find those women attractive, but I know that MOST black women don’t even come close.”

    As this my man here shows self hatred is so commonplace in Black American culture we don’t even know what it looks or sounds like anymore. This is the deal. In this society a woman’s worth is often determined by the level of her beauty, and a woman’s self esteem is directly impacted by her concept of beauty. This is the issue. The continuous de-feminization of the black female face and hyper-sexualization of the black female body has systematically lowered the worth of black women and girls and created a complex network of beliefs and behaviors that attack self-esteem. The Aids epidemic, high aborition and teen pregnancy rates, hyper sexuality, depression. It’s all connected. This has to stop. Period. This is deeper than wanting the admiration of a white, black, asian, or hispanic man. This is about deprogramming.

  • Elle Michelle

    I have experienced the same thing, Tae. Black men usually refer to me as “sexy,” but non-black men say I’m “pretty.” It’s perplexing.

  • Yb

    Thank you. I really wish commentators would realise that this isn’t about meeting a Eurocentric ideal but about self worth. If black girls are constantly told they are only sexy what do you thing these young girls will believe they are only good for?

    In this patriarchal society beauty is measuring stick used to determine the worth of a woman. If women, especially black girls do not feel beautiful then they feel worthless. Do we want this for our girls?

  • EllaEmpowered

    This article is very interesting. I feel the need to acknowledge that in the black community we have trouble realizing our own self beauty and have been constantly seeking and labeling it. Natural, relaxed, curvy, petite, dark, light– We have to realize that we are beautiful because our strength and versatility. When we show the world that side of us, we are going to move from the music videos to the action films.

  • Elle Michelle

    Thank you for breaking it down. You encapsulated my thoughts.

  • smm

    Yes, you are absolutely right…This IS about DEPROGRAMMING. Thank you for your wonderful insight!

  • Tonton Michel

    “Okay, then what is the standard of beauty for Black people? From what I have seen and heard it’s basically the European standard along with a large behind.”

    Thats a good question, if you are constantly bombarded by the media and what they set as the standard for beauty, a thing that is very subjective, going by this article a lot of it would be defined by the fashion industry. Ironic since this is an industry that does not really deal in beauty but deals in oddities, not beautiful people but odd looking people, people who are not the norm in their own communities making them stand outs. Their purpose is to draw attention to themselves and what ever they are selling, the more attention they draw the more appeal they have which makes other attention seekers want them. It doesnt make them beautiful, it makes them rare and collectible.

    A community completely devoid of a slanted media sets their own standard of what beauty is and that usually is a combination of qualities that pleases the intellect moral sense and physical desires. In many communities curvy and plump women fit that bill. A sign of health, fertility, and prosperity, obviously standard that does not fit into Euro values while just being begrudgingly accepted in America.

    Now I stop at the neck when it comes to beauty because out side of the eyes, (usually large), and lips, (usually full), what is considered a beautiful face is not set in stone. Hair and skin tone are heavily polluted by the media and has corrupted black peoples minds. Which leads to the main ingredient in beauty, esteem, having a healthy self esteem were you see the beauty in your self and and are not moved by outside influence makes you beautiful. That is something that is not always captured on camera.

    When black people can look in the mirror and see nothing wrong and nothing to be changed than you will see what are our standards of beauty are.

  • Perspective

    TAE – I only partially agree with the deprogramming.

    I have said it before myself that black women’s biggest problem is that they are NOT promoted, and then the ones that are promoted even by black women are (as we see with this article) Black women who represent the atypical beauty of black women.

    Black women can deny this all day until they are blue in the face. 90% want to look like these women if they were to become the ideal black woman and it has little to nothing to do with black men and more to do with what black women themselves have been socialized to believe is black beauty about themselves.

    Wanna look like Pam Grier, Cythia Bailey, Nia Long, or Tamika Davis (chocolate jawn in Jump the Broom) Black women who DO NOT look like the vast majority of AA women only to turn around and file the SELF HATE COMPLAINT.

    Black women want to talk about media. Please – black women were NOT checking for the dark skin brothas in the 80s – they want Chico Debarge looking dudes but then came hardcore hip hop and DARK SKIN HYPERMASCULINITY – suddenly dark skin men were in and they had a field day with the women who previously wouldn’t pay them any attention. The VANITIY’S from Vanity 6.

    Most of the PREFERENCE for dark black men comes out of media promotion! Black men are promoted unlike black women which makes it easy for BW to claim some type of loyalty rather than they are the victims of the same type of social conditioning.

    To me – DEPROGRAMMING is a half truth because, YES, I think dark skin African featured black women need to be promoted more. But too many women run with this and ignore that even on a basic level many women don’t fit the minimum requirements for any type of beauty.

    You can’t have the level of obesity that is seen in the AA community and then think that if we suddenly promote more Chocolate African Featured women that suddenly all these Plus size women would come into vogue!

    Or women who don’t like to wear makeup, believe in heels, dresses, or other beatification. There is a lot to work on that I find black women ignoring and then railing against society putting them down. They are correct. Society does, and black men aren’t much help – but I’ll be damned if I’m going to sit up here and let black women FRONT as if they were suddenly promoted more that all the 4′s and 5′s out here would become 10′s over night.

    Let SOME of these women tell it that’s what would happen. THAT IS FALSE.

    Its like going from natural to perm or perm to natural isn’t going to take a girl who’s a 5 out of 10 all the way up to an 11. For some. They either have it or they don’t and no one wants to face the reality that EVERYONE regardless of race cannot and will not fall into any DEFINED beauty standard. That is impossible.

    If we made Alek Wek the it girl – GUESS WHAT – 99% of AA women look nothing like her. So they would fall outside the confines of Dinka Beauty. (Her tribe/ethnic group)

  • Perspective

    TAE – Also I used to be believe in this concept of self actualized self worth.

    There is nothing ever more wrong.

    When it comes to beauty – beauty is based on ur number of wins.

    What do I mean by wins.

    You can’t tell a woman who never gets hit on by men that she should recognize her own beauty. You could attempt that but ultimately what you propose would lose its affect just as a father trying to tell his daughter that his daughter is beautiful but NO ONE has asked her to the school dance.

    SELF-WORTH – I hate to say – is largely based on MEDIA PROMOTION and HOW MANY WINS.

    It would be one thing if the media was saying one thing but then you go out here and it’s a different story. It would one thing if the media was promoting the idea that every black man is with a white woman – as they do, but Everywhere you go brothas are all in your face or you rarely ever see black men with white women.

    Black women from the deep south will say – most brothas only check for black women vs an educated black women living in DC or NY who will say that all educated black men disproportionately choose white women. It depends.

    If you ask me – we all watch too much TV and take too many ques from it, but if not for the media and not for getting approached or hit on by the opposite sex – WHAT IS THERE TO BE ARROGANT OR CONFIDENT ABOUT?

    Self actualization of self worth simply does not work unless you are ABSOLUTELY NOT LOOKING FOR ANY SORT OF VALIDATION FROM ANYONE.

    lets be real – everyone wants to be desired and accepted so to act like if we just screw black women’s heads on tight and get them to ignore media is going to raise their self esteem – YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!

    If you REALLY want to raise black women and young girls self esteem – they would have to be promoted the EXACT SAME WAY AS OTHER RACES and have black men reacting to them the same way.

    There’s a lot of NOT putting in the effort and victimization out here – 200lbs 5’2 crying about white women and how black men are self hating (rolling my eyes)

    But it cannot be denied that black women are NOT equally promoted and that it does play SOME TYPE OF ROLE in black men NOT see black women as always being PERSONAL “ARM CANDY”

    If she is its typically because she’s built like a race horse.

    White media has most certainly MASCULINIZED black features so badly to the point that whenever someone highlights and attractive black women with her “smaller features” relative to black men – they ALWAYS WANT TO ATTRIBUTE it to WHITENESS.

    I hate that and I have caught men and women pulling that crap.

    “Why she gotta be mixed just because shes’ pretty?”
    “Ohhh girl – I know u mixed with somethin’”

  • JS

    The black woman is beyond just beautiful and sexy. There really isn’t a single word to describe her in the English language. As we all know, his-story, the media, etc. for generations have created false images to keep us from her truth. Sisters, you are one of the most powerful, luminous, and life giving forces in our universe and please don’t forget that. Without you there would be no us. This is what matters!

  • alldawg

    In the BC beauty has not been defined, not even in terms of marketing. Its like putting a square peg in triangle hole. Right now the BC is still arguing about who should be in the starting blocks, while everyone else is in the race.

    Reason being…if all BW are beautiful, then what is beautiful. Everybody cant be beautiful, once one draws a line somebody is not going to make the cut. Yes feelings will be hurt but that is no excuse to not find a mate.
    I had girl tell me I have a ugly face, but i still was having sex with her. So my point is not being easy on the eyes just find someone with an ugly fetish.

  • HowApropos

    Somehow I highly doubt that you’re doing anything productive except be a total assclown, but then it must be your nature to not be taken seriously.

    and that’s how i treat you…

    take some shtt to go with that smugness on your face :)

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    Dear Perspective,

    I do not agree with your perspective.

    “You can’t tell a woman who never gets hit on by men that she should recognize her own beauty. You could attempt that but ultimately what you propose would lose its affect just as a father trying to tell his daughter that his daughter is beautiful but NO ONE has asked her to the school dance. ”

    This whole statement, in my opinion, is just all types of wrong. A father shouldn’t have to “try” to tell his daughter that she is beautiful, it’s his job to make sure she knows that she is beautiful. If you don’t understand why and/or how that is his job, than that’s something you will have to deal with on your own. If I am reading your response correctly you are basically stating that the amount of men who hit on a woman determines whether or not she should see herself as beautiful. I can’t go there with you my brother. I would have to write you a small novel, and that’s bad comment section etiquette.

    The only thing that you said that I can agree with is
    “Self actualization of self worth simply does not work unless you are ABSOLUTELY NOT LOOKING FOR ANY SORT OF VALIDATION FROM ANYONE.”

    Bingo. A woman who is evolved knows that it’s not what you call her, it’s what she answers to. Her worth is not determined by how she is treated but how she carries herself, not how she appears to others but how she appears to herself. I learned this lesson the hard way. If a woman likes what she sees in the mirror, regardless of how many “wins” she averages, that is all that matters. I hate to say this but as of right now I believe that black women are on our own, it’s up to us to validate our beauty for ourselves, not black or any other color of men, not the media, not all the relationship gurus, nobody. We have been searching without, and it’s time we go within. Black women have the validation of the MOST HIGH, and that’s all the validation we need. Pac said it best, only GOD can judge me. Black women need to stop caring about the opinons of men, specifically men like you.If you don’t understand, scratch that, OVERstand, your eye aint open.

    Black women will never be promoted the way women of other races are, and we don’t need to be. It’s foolish and vain to believe that our problems will be solved if we are “promoted” like other women. The struggles of the Black woman and man in this society run deep, and this conversation is only the tip of the iceberg.And this is very, very much about programming, you yourself have been programmed, your statements reflect that.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Toni-Phelps/100000054810371 Toni Phelps

    Modeling and advertising is more about sex and exploiting women than it is about beauty. Black women are rarely portrayed in the media as whores, prostitutes, or sexually promiscuous women. Actually it is quite the opposite.

    Articles such as this (written by black women) do more harm to the self- esteem of black women than anything that is printed in mainstream media. I am tired of the bogus rants about how black women aren’t seen as good enought, when nothing can be further from the truth.

    If the writer of this article is truly a black woman, then she needs to do some self evaluating. I think her negative self image is spewing out in her work.

  • Pingback: Friday Sex Links! « Sex with Timaree

  • Perspective

    1OMG TAE

    (Big Sigh)

    Here was go with the nuts an berries – MOST HIGH!? (rolling my eyes)

    OVERSTAND. Omg Here we got with Black Earth mother stuff of women who think that black women live off of the life energy of the universe like the Force in Star wars.

    Look lady – WE ARE NOT CELESTIAL BEING FLOATING THRU THE COSMOS like Jean Grey as the Phoenix in X-Men.

    I get what you are saying Yoda – but check this out. When it comes time to partner up and men aren’t interest in you – that’s when SPIRITUALNESS falls apart.

    Now if you are NOT interested in men, or you are ONLY into nuts and berries type me such as urself, then you will do alright.

    But for the LESS CONSCIOUS women out here – what you are saying simply will not work when it comes time to find a boyfriend.

    Half of our existence is based on sexual attraction and reproduction. I sorry I don’t care if you are a man or a woman – NO ONE wants to be the last picked in dodge ball or not picked at all.

    WE ARE SOCIAL BEINGS!!!!! we are NOT – conscious INDIVIDUALS who are searching for a higher Nirvana who set ourselves on fire when we protest.

    I GET where ur coming from. I’m just saying for the AVERAGE PERSON – that’s simply not going to work.

    And I can’t stand the idea of every time black people feel EXCLUDED – instead of CREATING OUR OWN which MATCHES OR IS BETTER THAN OTHER GROUPS – we simply shut down and create these SUB CULTURES that are rarely productive.

    All these so called conscious earth mother black people out here – AND LOOK AT THE CONDITION OF THE COMMUNITY.

    Same fools talking about I don’t define myself by money – ignoring that we live in a world where money is the medium of exchange.

    If what you were on was so awesome – then why isn’t there a segment of the black community where all of you and ur ilk congregate and have a community to look up to?

    For further evidence of how these subculture haven’t gotten us anywhere. I direct you to your nearest black community.

  • Perspective

    U can’t create an ugly utopia.

    I get it the white media and system doesn’t serve black women’s beauty interest – I GOT THAT.

    but I don’t see why we can’t create our own – and understand that EVERYONE STILL isn’t going to fall into the beautiful category. that is impossible.

    Every woman of ANY RACE isn’t considered beautiful.

    If every day was a sunny day what’s a sunny day.

    All I see is an attempt and black people to not be defined by anything but that is not how the world works

    We can go off on ur – we are energy and not physical beings island with a bunch of black men and women – and I’m telling you

    Once we the men start choosing women based on beauty – all that energy self value stuff is going to go out the window. Women are going to compete for men just and are going to compete with women.

    I work out because I like staying healthy and it attracts women. I am competing with other men.

    I’m not the type to sit around and say. I’m broke, I don’t work out, I don’t believe much in personal hygiene but expect for women to pay me any attention. If I want a woman in my life, I need to attract her. I’m not going to sit around trying to shame her with some notion of HIGHER CONSCIOUSNESS and tell her how she should see past my big belly, and broke teeth because we are black benevolent beings floating through the air waiting for our souls to combine.

    GIVE ME A BREAK.

    That is beyond dumb. It sounds like an ugly girl argument, just like a short guy argument to me, or a broke guy argument.

    “oh we don’t want to be defined by ANYTHING!”

    that is different that saying

    “we don’t want to be defined by a european standard.”

    Those 2 thoughts aren’t even in the same room – but I see black people trying to mask not being defined by ANYTHING with blackness ALL THE TIME.

  • http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com Elegance

    This is harsh by I kind of agree. Everyone wants to be thought of as beautiful but the only way that can happen is to lower everyone’s standards or have no standards. Most people will not be able to do that, and because there are attractive people they don’t have to. I can understand them wanting to be validated but these appeals to seeing only what’s on the inside won’t help because no one can see your insides when they first meet you. That will take time, but they will immediately be drawn to someone they find pleasing on the outside.

    I agree that people who are not born beautiful have to work at it. There are things that many can do to improve their looks and compete but if you refuse to then you have to deal with the consequences of being less desirable.

  • oknow

    @ QON.. 1st u are off topic.. what do children and how women talk to their children have to do w/this topic.. i think that should be under parenting.. Cause i can easily say that their are too many men who molest their children, talk down to them, don’t spend time w/them, and don’t take care of them physically or emotionally, not to mention that other women of other races yell at their children to.. you failed to mention that but anyway..

    2nd, i know black women have attitudes.. the point that most black women are trying to make is that ‘THEY ARE NOT THE ONE ONES”.. Feel me.. it’s not the pot calling the kettle black, that only applies if we deny that we can have an attitude.. it’s a characteristic that EVERYONE has as a reaction to certain things.. Point being that ppl make “ATTITUDE” synonymous with “BLACK WOMEN” but of course they don’t point it out in “OTHER RACES OF WOMEN”…

  • http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com Elegance

    Definitely the fashion industry is filled with weird people and that’s why many women like myself reject fashion magazines and shows all together. High fashion models are to rare for anyone to try to look like and trying to look like them can actually kill you through starvation. Plus, the industry and those who choose the models are not even straight men so I ignore the fashion industry. I value more the opinions of regular men and the women I hear them describe as ideal.

    I think the European standard is easier for White women because they all have silky hair (curly or straight) that fits the ideal and many can grow long hair if they want to. Plus, they are all light skinned and can all tan to the same colour if they wanted to!

    In contrast to the Black community, some of us relax our hair, some Black and biracial people have silkier hair, and some have natural kinky/coily hair so our textures have too much variety to define one standard without leaving a lot of people out or necessitating chemical processing. Also, we have way more variety in skin colour so a certain tone can not be defined as the standard without leaving many women out too!

    This is why I think in the Black community healthy hair and even-toned, healthy, soft, shiny skin should be the standard of beauty. I think natural hair can look better than relaxed hair, light skin with uneven tone and ashiness can look worse than moisturized even dark skin so it all depends on the health and care of the body rather than specific texture or skin colour.

    Another complicating factor is that Black men may have a standard for beauty (e.g., long, straight hair, light skin, large behind) but non-Black men have a different standard and many seem to prefer natural hair, dark skin, and a slim body! They are attracted to Black features like natural hair and dark skin otherwise they would just go for their own women. So Black women will be judged differently based on the race of the man and they may just end up going with the men who accept them with dark skin and kinky hair.

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    I do not know you but judging from your big sighs, eye rolls, and gratuitous use of “black earth mother”, and “nuts and berries” you and I do not and probably never will run in the same circles. I surround myself with individuals who possess certain qualities, and follow certain principles. Yes I said MOST HIGH and it’s a rule of my when engaging in debate not to become overly emotional. So that little dig right there I’m not going to take personally but I personally don’t see anything to eye roll about when somebody uses GOD/GODDESS ALLAH YAHWEH or any other term that they see fit to reference the CREATOR. I respect the beliefs and faiths of others so it always a little disturbing when I encounter the opposite from others. With that being said, you and I are operating on two totally different frequencies.

    About your claims that we are social beings, not CONSCIOUS beings. I believe that we are both social and conscious beings. If you would prefer to be the opposite of CONSCIOUS, which is UNCONSCIOUS you have free will and are entitled to live life as you please be it sleeping or awake. You cannot explain a system to somebody who does not think that system exists, this is our line in the sand. You stand firmly on one side and I on the other. I believe that we are spiritual beings most importantly and this earth, this realm, is just a classroom. The final test is transcendence. Those of us who can rise above the backwords ass ways of the WORLD reap the greatest rewards. Some people are content to run through the maze day in and day out, some people are content competing their lives away for the sake of worldly gain, some people are content seeking validation/admiration/acceptance from others. Some people are not.

    When we speak about ugliness, beauty, being average etc, we throw out those terms and never ask ourselves how we know when to use them, who to apply them to. Black people have been conditioned to see ourselves as inferior and judge ourselves against a physical standard that is the antithesis of what we naturally possess, this is especially the case with black women and working within that context black women will never measure up not because they are ugly but because they are black and blackness equals ugliness in our society. If your nose is too wide, hair too kinky, or skin too black you are ugly but wide noses, kinky hair, and black skin is a large part of who we are. Black people are beautifully physically diverse but the ones of us who can blend in more easily with those at the lighter end of the spectrum are glorified and we accept this because “that’s just how it is” but we don’t even question why this is the way it is, how it came to be like that. Why are black people who are lighter and finer featured considered the most beautiful physically pleasing? Is it because that is the absolute truth and black folks are ugly and sub-human just like they told us we were or is it because after hundreds of years of conditioning that is what we accept to be the truth? Black people have been conditioned to work within a system that was designed for our mental spiritual and ultimately physical destruction, and as I said before you cannot explain this system or even verify it’s existence to someone who does not believe it exits or does not want to accept that it exists.

    You keep talking about being beautiful and finding a boyfriend and that is trivial in light of what I am speaking of which is the deprogramming of the mentality instilled in us through hundreds years of being degraded, dehumanized, and forced to accept it all with a shuck and a jive. It’s much deeper than maybelline and going on dates.

    I never said that one should appear sloppy and unkempt and expect for others to fall all over them because they have a higher consciousness. The body is a temple, first and foremost, the body is to be maintained and beautified to your individual liking. If you got a big belly and some broke teeth and that’s what you consider to be attractive, then rock on, but if you don’t like that big belly then tone it up and if you don’t like your broke teeth, look into getting them repaired and don’t do it solely cause you want other people to like what they see, do it cause you want to and have the right to like what you see when you look in the mirror independent of what anybody thinks. I truly could give two shits about what anybody thinks about the way I look. See I was that girl you referred to that never got asked to the school dance and it wasn’t because I was ugly (I’ve had enough people tell me how beautiful they find me to know this but most importantly I look in the mirror and I see it for myself) it was because at 12 years old the black boys at my school were already speaking such pearls of wisdom as “I don’t go out with girls who are darker than me.” Never heard a white, asian, or hispanic boy say it. They may have thought about it but during my youth there was no one who was more vocal about the physical inferiority of black girls than black boys. As a matter of fact the first man who ever called me gorgeous what a white boy who came through my drive thru when I worked at Burger King. I’ve seen the system at work first-hand, I know it very well, I used to be an active participant in it and then I woke up. And if your spirituality crumbles like cookies in warm milk just cause men/women aren’t fighting each other to choose you when you step on the scene, your spirituality is vapid, useless as a windbreaker in a blizzard, and in need of some serious strength training. And one last thing, the black community out here where I’m at……beautiful.
    PEACE

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    and I exclusively deal with men whose minds are not in bondage aka the nuts and berries type.

  • Perspective

    @ TAE –

    Skipping right past all the nuts and berries once again. Getting to the meet.

    Ok reading where you are talking about the beauty/ugliness.

    Ok I see your missing the point. Yes we all agree on all that of how black is undermined but that problem is you let THAT overshadow what we’re going to do about it by THROWING OUT ALL STANDARDS.

    I’m going to have to go back to the same point that Elegance made.

    Are we going to create a black beauty standard or not? Are we unbiased enough as African Americans to do so? I don’t know, I’m leaning towards no. Either way how do you define beauty for a whole continent with the most diverse group of people on the planet. Ok we west african descent lets just stick with west African. Now what?! Ok we establish a black beauty standard. Guess what? Only 20% of less of people will fall within it. Everyone can’t be found equally beautiful and I find that the unattractive girls are always the ones who want to push this idea.

    If we are having a beauty contest – we are having a beauty contest – NOT a Spelling Bee which is what I see black women try to do all the time.

    The other thing I don’t like is in fighting white supremacy black women try to take what whites put down about us and promote it. I don’t care if white people think Flavor Flav is ugly SO DO I – and that has nothing to do with white supremacy.

    In other words. If I took a white person with the most EXTREME OF WHITE FEATURES I’m not going to get an attractive person. Its about proportions and all that. I understand black is undermined but on a basic human level most of us know an ugly person when we see one. Beauty does not nor should it have to be explained. You just know. Beauty makes you DOUBLE TAKE. If you have to sit there and EXPLAIN your beauty to someone chances are you are not beautiful to them and its a waste of time trying to explain your beauty. Lance Gross is just a good looking man – he doesn’t have to explain away white supremacy in order to be found attractive.

    I see black women do this all the time. If it wasn’t for this white beauty standard – I’d be fine as hell. Well in China according to China beauty standards I’m gorgeous. Me – Well I guess you need to take ur butt to China and get out my face.

    “black boys at my school were already speaking such pearls of wisdom as “I don’t go out with girls who are darker than me.” Never heard a white, asian, or hispanic boy say it. ”

    That’s unfortunate and I’m sorry that happened to you, but don’t use other races of men as the standard. They don’t need to say anything to you because they don’t have to justify not getting with or choosing you because they are not ur race. If I’m not into white women do I need to explain to her why I’m not into her and give her the break down – no. I’m not even going to be in her face.

    I’m sure there are things that you could do for yourself that could increase ur attractiveness but a lot of time black women look at the insurmountable odds and give up. I see this with a lot of really big black muslim women who convert and just COVER UP literally. Its a shame.

    But this is what tells me that your not comfortable with what you preach. If you truly were, you wouldn’t be on here trying to sell it to other women.

    People seek support in different forms and as I said just like with the approaching people want positive reinforcement.

    Single moms want P-R
    Ugly women want P-R
    Fat women want P-R

    which is fine, its just that at the end of the day the WORLD is going to continue to operate as it has and the people in it for thousands of years.

    If I throw away Megan Good – Call me self hating.

    but other than that men are going to go for attractive women, like I said beauty doesn’t have to be explained just like women are going to go for what they are into in men.

    If a woman likes muscles – i’m going to hit the gym. I’m not going to have a debate with her about how she’s been conditioned to like muscular men.

    Now race is different because u can’t change ur race or features but my suggestion then is to move onto someone who’s into you.

    I sure don’t see any SHORTAGE of black babies coming into this world regardless all this supposed self hate that’s keeping black women single and undesirable. Hmmm I wonder y?

  • chanela

    THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! i have been saying this FOREVER! how the hell is a woman supposed to feel beautiful when she is the only one who thinks she is and never ever gets hit on.

    everybody woman wants to be desired. how do you feel that way when you only see one type of woman throughout the media and hear and see men of every race (and your own) clamoring over women who look the complete opposite of you? its very hard to have self esteem and feel pretty when you are the opposite of what pretty is to 99% of the world.

    its the most depressing thing about being a black woman. we can always be delusional though, 500lbs and saying ” i know i look good” even though nobody else does lol. that’s why i think its BS when people say men like confident women. there are tons of confident women but men don’t want them because they are usually the women that can squash a guy.lol

  • Socially Maladjusted

    Toni Phelps wrote

    Modeling and advertising is more about sex and exploiting women than it is about beauty. Black women are rarely portrayed in the media as whores, prostitutes, or sexually promiscuous women. Actually it is quite the opposite.

    Articles such as this (written by black women) do more harm to the self- esteem of black women than anything that is printed in mainstream media. I am tired of the bogus rants about how black women aren’t seen as good enought, when nothing can be further from the truth.

    If the writer of this article is truly a black woman, then she needs to do some self evaluating. I think her negative self image is spewing out in her work.
    ……………………………………………….

    After reading all the main piece and the long winded, nonsensical scrawls in the comment thread, this was a refreshing outbreak of common sense and clarity.

    Best post of thread goes to Toni Phelps.

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    1. **Getting to the meat.

    2. It’s trivializes my life experience and personal perspective when men such as yourself assume that I am seeking an apology due to situations that took place in my childhood and adolescence. I am an adult. I grew up, I evolved. I am grateful for everything struggle that I have endured because it was a part of my learning process and I am all the better for it. I use those situations as reference points when trying to explain the social conditions that have had the most affect on my philosophical views.

    3. I am very comfortable with what I preach. As I stated in my last reply your use of nuts and berries alone when referring to my particular school of thought is a clear indication of intellectual immaturity and I am sure at this point that we can’t have a productive and engaging debate. You make some good points but your major emphasis is on the external, my emphasis is on the internal. Your emphasis is on how the world works, my emphasis is on universal/spiritual law. To you the question is, “What we are going to do to change the black beauty standard?” For me the question is, “How did the current beauty standard in our community come into being?” If you want to dismantle a thing correctly it’s best if you know how it was built. If you want to find your way through an unfamiliar house it’s best if you have a blueprint. And the bulk of my argument is largely influenced by the diversity of the peoples who inhabit the African continent. If our people are so wonderfully diverse, in terms of physical appearance, how did the beauty standard within our community become so rigid? There are “black” indigenous peoples on nearly every continent from Asia to South America yet everywhere it’s the same thing. The darker your complexion and/or wider your features, the stronger your ethnic characteristics and higher your melanin count, the lower you rate on the attractiveness scale. Intra-racially light skinned and finer-featured Afro-Americans, Afro-Brazilians, Afro-Guyanese, Afro-Iranian, Afro-anythings enjoy a certain social privilege and this phenomenon is cultural debilitating and destructive to our collective unity. That is my point. We keep missing the point of the other’s argument and this leads to a conversation in which both parties are engaged if selective listening, if we are even listening to each other at all.

    4. I have realized that, ultimately, e-debates like this are truly fruitless. To tell you the truth this is mental exercise for me, sharpening my skills before I start school this fall. I do worry about our community though. Imperialism, racism, and colonialism have ripped black people straight down the middle. The same principles and politics that divided field niggers and house niggers in essence still divide us today, except now the plantations and big houses look a little different.

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    **culturally debilitating.

  • http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com Elegance

    @ Perspective.

    Yes this makes sense to me!
    I think that women need to set a Black beauty standard so that they have something to work towards in terms of self-maintenance and self-improvement. People are fooling themselves and in denial if they think they don’t have internalized beauty standards. There is a reason why most women don’t wear lipstick on their foreheads, paint spots on their faces, or wear green lipstick to work…it’s because they don’t see other women doing it! What they do and don’t do is influenced by what is the standard for other women. So a Black beauty standard will give women something to do instead of doing nothing and being outraged when others say they are unattractive.

    This women-created beauty standard WILL HAVE NO AFFECT on the man-created beauty standard. If women insist on a beauty standard men will nod in agreement and then go back to pursuing and adoring the women they find beautiful. Attraction is automatic and can not be rationalized. You can tell them to find dark skinned women beautiful but they will not FEEL it. You can not force someone to feel something biological, automatic, and unconscious. Men will create their own Black standard of beauty and women will not be able to influence that.

    In contrast, the man-created beauty standard WILL HAVE AN AFFECT on the women-created beauty standard because many women will strive to achieve the man-created beauty standard. They will do this because they want to attract or stay attractive to men! They don’t care what other women think because they are the competition, try to sabotage their chances, and they don’t care to attract women. This is why it is important to recognize who men say is attractive. However, men are individuals and there are probably many out there who will find most women beautiful even if they don’t live up to the standards of the majority of men.

    In conclusion:
    1) Black women need to create a beauty standard so that they can have something to consult when they maintain or improve their appearance. It will allow them to choose role models. Women who fit these standards should be used in advertising to Black women because these role models will be objectively beautiful but their beauty will also be attainable to many women.
    2) Men will create and act upon any standard of beauty they choose and women won’t be able to change that. There are men who will find a woman beautiful even if most other people do not. Men have a variety of preferences by the majority of men will have a similar standard. Advertisements for men should use women who fit the majority male standard of beauty.
    3) Women who want to attract and stay attractive to men will pay attention to the men’s standard of beauty and try to live up to that standard. They will ignore women who tell them to ignore the men’s standard and they will ignore the women’s standard because doing otherwise would “ruin their game”. They will pay attention to advertisements that use women who fit the men’s standard of beauty.

    So the best advice I can give to women is keep up your health, maintain your appearance and try to be as attractive as possible without causing physical or mental harm, and find a man who thinks you are beautiful. Never try to convince a man you are beautiful because it will not work.

  • So Over This Ish

    @FrugalJana…Beyonce is considered both beautiful and sexy by lots of people. She was more on the sexy side a few years ago but now she seems to have adopted a more classy image. She is a mom now too, so I don’t really see her in skimpy outfits anymore. She was overexposed in every sense of the word. But now that she is more covered up and low-key, I believe people see her as being more than just sexy.

    With respect to Rihanna and Nicki, though, I’m not sure. Rihanna is very attractive and stylish but I’ve never quite heard anyone describe her as beautiful. The same with Nicki. So I guess you’re right in that sense. They tend to push themselves as “sexy” women.

    But I definitely agree with Yb. All women are sexualized and have been since the dawn of time, but the history for Black women is different.

    I believe the “Jezebel” stereotype would apply in this situation.

  • http://elegantblackwoman.blogspot.com Elegance

    @ TAE

    I hope you don’t consider this to be picking on you but it just seems like you are suffering from a thinking pattern that is prevalent in the Black community and many other people. You said.

    “You make some good points but your major emphasis is on the external, my emphasis is on the internal. Your emphasis is on how the world works, my emphasis is on universal/spiritual law. To you the question is, “What we are going to do to change the black beauty standard?” For me the question is, “How did the current beauty standard in our community come into being?” If you want to dismantle a thing correctly it’s best if you know how it was built. If you want to find your way through an unfamiliar house it’s best if you have a blueprint. ”

    This thinking pattern keeps them from creating and enacting useful solutions and keeps them focused on finding out and understanding “why” something happened. The fact is that you may never find out. There are millions of variables that contribute to something happening therefore there will be millions of reasons why. Furthermore, some accepted reasons may actually be wrong and impossible to verify because they started hundreds of years ago. The answers to “why” may never be found and are based on speculation and theory and little verifiable evidence.

    You give the example of finding your way through a house but that is not a good example since it involves familliarizing and navigating a new space. I think a better example would be that if your car is broken, you tell a mechanic the problem, and he fixes is. It doesn’t matter how the problem occurred because you may not know, and you may attribute it to something that didn’t really cause it. What people don’t realize is that with some problems you just look at the current situation, come up with possible solutions, consider the pros and cons, and based on that you choose the most feasible and potentially effective course of action. In other cases it may be useful to examine causes so that the problem does not arise again but that is a much longer and possibly impossible task that can take place while At THE SAME TIME while a solution is being enacted. One does not have to determine a cause before enacting a conclusion. One does not have to know why people get pregnant before deciding to get pregnant, or why people can read before learning to read, why a car works before learning to drive etc.

    Examining causes like slavery, White people, racism etc. is something that has hindered Black people for years because they will never fully understand the causes, they can not do anything about the causes because they were in the past, and this prevents them from doing something now! I think part of the problem is fear that they will make a mistake and choose the wrong solution and think that unless they understand everything about the causes they will make a mistake. Really, we need to just do something after consideration of the pros and cons and by examining similar situations through research.

  • Perspective

    @ TAE – here we go

    Right here is the problem I have women SOME black women

    “I use those situations as reference points when trying to explain the social conditions that have had the most affect on my philosophical views.”

    Why does it always have to be the SOCIAL CONDITIONS if a woman is not found attractive. Granted – we know that black beauty “which hasn’t been defined” is undermined – but are you meaning to tell me that anytime a black woman is found unattractive its because of social conditions? Is that what you’re saying.

    You see there is a difference between a self hate argument and a ugly argument and I see many black women try to blend the 2.

    Self hate is “I like nothing about my own people”

    Now a lot of less attractive women – not saying you, or women who FEEL less attractive but aren’t actually unattractive scapegoat to self hate arguments.

    Here and example I picked up on.

    A black woman give you 2 women to compare. One black one light skin or white.

    Instead of pulling on 2 equally attractive women. The black woman will pull on a black woman who is clearly no contest to the lighter or whiter woman and then when the man picks the lighter woman the black woman springs into action

    “AHA! I KNEW IT – SELF HATER” its real slick!

    See I’m like nah chick – Compare the comparable.

    Don’t give me Amber Rose and India Arie – that’s not a contest. Ur comparing a stripper to a woman who’s dressed down to begin with. One is oversexed and the other is undersexed so right off top it’s not a contest – but also Amber Rose wins hands down, that’s just what it is. Accept that!

    A real contest would be – Amber Rose or Megan Good – see NOW ur talking.

    But see less attractive girls don’t want to present that because they are trying to make it APPEAR to be self hate when it is not. Forget comparing a black and white woman. Lets just compare 2 black women.

    Even then – it gets ridiculous because every argument conceivable will be made to break down why the OTHER black woman is seen as more attractive.

    “AHA her hair has a fraction to the degree of less kink! AHA!”

    See when women get that stupid – I’m like this conversation is over because I can see this isn’t about BEAUTY. This is about getting black men to CO-SIGN the black woman who is clearly unattractive or the woman who is closer to the woman that the black woman who presented the test looks like.

    I see that mess from a mile away.

    “WHOOPI GOLDBERG IS BEAUTIFUL” – (eye roll) Yea ok chick.

  • Perspective

    Skkkkkkiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrrrtttttttttt!

    “You make some good points but your major emphasis is on the external, my emphasis is on the internal.”

    whoa whoa whoa – earth to TAE – this conversation is about beauty – BEAUTY!!!

    We are not having a

    1) Best mother of the year contest
    2) Best mother of the earth contest
    3) Best personality contest
    4) Most generous contest
    5) Nicest Individual contest

    WE ARE HAVING A BEAUTY CONTEST – LETS STAY FOCUSED.

    … See man this is what I’m talking about… Women always trying to turn a beauty contest into a spelling bee. Clearly if we can’t focus or talk about beauty in the context of beauty, then you are at the wrong venue.

    Now with that brain fart on your part out of the way – Back to the meat.

    ““What we are going to do to change the black beauty standard?” For me the question is, “How did the current beauty standard in our community come into being?”

    Ok so now your agreeing that we should establish a black beauty standard? Wasn’t that my original point? I remember someone wanting to throw the very concept of beauty out or making the IMPOSSIBLE happen – “everyone is beauty” or the “everyone is beautiful in their own way”

    So I guess if I’m making $15,000 I’m rich in my own way
    Or if I’m failing every class – I’m smart in my own way? Right?

    See there is always going to be a standard of measure. No standard includes everyone. If it did – then it wouldn’t be a standard.

    Now I’m not denying that as African Americans our standard isn’t heavily influenced by the dominant group – whites – However, if we went to the other extreme and went with a purely African standard, most of us would fall out of that as well.

    If Dijmon H from Amistad was the standard for black men. Well shoot, I’m out – cause I’m a Nick Cannon looking brotha.

    400 years later, there’s no way we could have a purely African standard of beauty and make it work for even most African Americans – this most certainly is the case in Brazil. Those 2 women in the photo at the top of the page look nothing like African women.

    Now our standard should be MORE BLACK but I don’t think it could every go back to what it was pre-slavery, with all the admixture out here. We’re better off coming up with an African American standard and just rolling with that – understanding that everyone is not going to fit within it.

    As I said before I think the issue with how jacked up the beauty standard is for black women has more to do with the MASCULINIZATION of blackness and black features than it does just white beauty.

    Those Sri Lankan dark women blow white women out the water, and if you notice even white society has this fascination with the white woman dipped in chocolate LOOK.

    E.g. East African women. Dravidian Indian women.

    That I think is the hardest thing to fight because I notice that if the woman is light skin every black woman is in an uproar. But if a black woman is dark skin AND HAS EUROPEAN FEATURES – strong ones at that. Black women are the FIRST to cosign even though they don’t look like that.

    I have noticed that black women are the first ones to present to me a white woman dipped in chocolate as the ideal of black beauty if I were to choose a white woman, and I continue to strive to explain to them, HEY BUT SHE DOESN’T LOOK LIKE YOU, and if it came between you and her and I picked her – first thing out ur mouth would be HER WHITE FEATURES.

    What I noticed is that black women tend to feel, and perhaps men too, that the only black women that can DEFEAT white women are the black women with white features, because THEY DO LOOK BETTER in my opinion. White women can’t mess with that.
    Problem is, how does that help the masses of black women. Just cause she’s dark doesn’t mean she represents you if she doesn’t have the same features. I feel like black women miss out on that.

    They co-sign to their own detriment because they are so desperate for black validation. This sends mixed signals to young black men, because we all co-sign these atypical black women as BLACK and BEAUTIFUL then when the men choose them – the typical black women get mad.

    Same junk happens when a biracial woman marries a white man BW go from she’s a light skin “B” to suddenly she’s an honorary black woman and this is evidence of white men’s lust and infatuation for black woman.

    Seeking validation indiscriminately like this is DANGEROUS AND UNHELPFUL

  • Perspective

    “This women-created beauty standard WILL HAVE NO AFFECT on the man-created beauty standard. If women insist on a beauty standard men will nod in agreement and then go back to pursuing and adoring the women they find beautiful. Attraction is automatic and can not be rationalized. You can tell them to find dark skinned women beautiful but they will not FEEL it. You can not force someone to feel something biological, automatic, and unconscious. Men will create their own Black standard of beauty and women will not be able to influence that.”

    Which is why black women have to be promoted in the same light as the other races of women that black women THINK black men lust after so much.

    What I find strange is how some black men with embrace to so called European facial features but NOT the body.

    I think that creates a weird social imbalance. Hence where Latinas come in.

    The other problem I see is are the Biracial people TEND to be more attractive than both groups, but from the black angle as a female its just seen as being closer to white therefore it’s the same thing.

    Although I know quite a few women who swoon over The Rock, Vin Diesel, and Boris Kodjoe.

    I think it comes down to PROMOTION – dark skin black men were not always in.

    They came into vogue with Hip-Hop and R&B. Black women have yet to get receive their moment in the sun.

    There needs to be balance and I keep trying to tell sistas you are NOT going to be able to attract brothas with MOTHER EARTH STATUS – that does NOT cater to a man’s libido.

    That does not mean be a video Vixen either.

    There needs to be a level of balance. A black woman should be able to easily be

    Sexually objectified, Respected, and capable of intimacy.

    The strong black woman – is seen as incapable of intimacy
    The Earth mother – is seen and incapable of being sexually objectified, only respected – SHAME ON U. We don’t look at the Virgin Mary as a sex object now do we?
    and
    The Video Vixen – is seen as incapable of being respected. She’s only sexually objectified and used for intimacy.

    We need all those types of black women to be encompassed in one.
    I can tell you AS A BLACK MAN.

    Out here – its like you only get 1 or the other. I can’t get all around.

    We’re not looking for perfect but being EXTREMES is not what most men want because they come with drawbacks.

  • Kam

    What fashion scouts think is beautiful and what ordinary people think is beautiful are not necessarily the same thing. Wasn’t there a study that showed that men thought blondes were sexy but when it came down to the women they wanted a relationship with they chose the brunette. I don’t know, from the anecdotes I’ve heard all the men think that the average brown Brazilian is much prettier than Giselle Bundchen. The fashion scouts might think the opposite. It has already been shown that the American standard of beauty is a lot browner than it was about 20 years ago.

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    @Elegance, I don’t take anything personal. I know myself and my way of thinking a lot better than you do, I assure you. I also stand by my use of metaphor. I suggest you re-read my posts then refer to #3 above, specifically the last two sentences of the paragraph.

  • Srenda

    @Perspective Really?! You sure are imposing a lot of your personal preferences as if they’re universal ones. You might feel very attracted to women who don’t resemble earth-mothers but they’re are men who are attracted to those women just as they’re are men who like big girls and the internet makes it easier for people to find each other these days. Buuuut, why are you really here, though? Cuz you sound like you have an axe to grind with black women. You keep telling us about the kinds of women YOU like and maybe a homie or two of yours will chime in and agree and then this emphasizes the truth you speak. Your desires sound pretty shallow and irresponisble and don’t sound like they’ll get you any lasting relationships. If you just want to bang non earth mother type women than ok fine but that could get pretty old though especially as they age and their bodies change. I mean come on you’re here putting down Indie.Arie and Whoopi Goldberg. Why because they’re not putting on fishnets and aren’t showing cleavage? Two dark-skinned black women who happen to be celebrities…hmmm… Is that just a coincidence? Give me a break. So many women look like both of them do and are married. Sign off the internet once in awhile and recognize that your preferences and personal experiences and desires are not universal and while they might get people off at night, when it comes right down to it many people are single right now and many people aren’t and the people who are single right now may not be in the near future just as those who are hooked up with someone today may not be hooked up tomorrow. Sounds like you need to get out of the gym and hit the books, my boy.

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    I’m focused man.

    “Don’t give me Amber Rose and India Arie – that’s not a contest. Ur comparing a stripper to a woman who’s dressed down to begin with. One is oversexed and the other is undersexed so right off top it’s not a contest – but also Amber Rose wins hands down, that’s just what it is. Accept that!”

    “WHOOPI GOLDBERG IS BEAUTIFUL” – (eye roll) Yea ok chick.”

    “I try to tell sistas the whole “Mothers of the earth” thing “RESPECT ME!” thing isn’t that great because MEN don’t want to sleep with the mother of the earth. Mother of the Earth is typically going to lose against the woman in fishnets and heels because that caters to a man’s libido. A lot of mothers of the earth want to be RAVISHED by a man but they don’t look RAVISHING. They typically look like they have poor hygiene and are vegans.”

    “HOW MANY BLACK WOMEN LOOK LIKE CYNTHIA BAILEY – is everyone going to tell me that that’s some EVERYDAY THING?! Cynthia Bailey? Most sistas look like Pheadra or Neene. You damn right I want Cynthia Bailey…. Is that self hate? Have I been conditioned or socialized? Judging from these statements and others you have made during the course of our exchange your preferences and concepts”

    Your statements speak volumes about your state of mind. Your use of Cynthia Bailey, Amber Rose, and Meagan Goode as aesthetic passes and India Arie, Phaedra, Nenee, and Whoopi Goldberg as fails make your preferences and ideals concerning the concept of beauty clear as crystal. You have the natural born right to feel however you want to feel, think however you want to think and most certainly be attracted to whomever you please. With that being said your comments above perfectly illustrate the type of thinking I feel is my duty to speak out against.

    Your buddy Elegance claims that the standard for black women should be “smooth, even toned skin and shiny healthy hair.” If that was the case, if being beautiful was about having smooth skin and shiny hair than I ask you what’s wrong with Phaedra in relation to Cynthia? I think Phaedra is beautiful, she has a nice shape, pretty skin, and hair, as does Cynthia, but to you this “typical” black woman is no match for the “atypical” beauty of Cynthia. Hmmmmm.I would never want to see you mentoring our youth, male or female, and I pray that if you have a daughter she is not unfortunate enough to resemble one of the women didn’t make your beauty cut. Real talk, and that’s not meant to be mean spirited.

    Within my family there are queens that favor India Arie, Phaedra, Nenee, and Whoopi and in my eyes those women are just as beautiful as the members of my family who favor Cynthia, Amber, and Meagan. That is the standard I would like to see in our community, one that does the genetic diversity of my people justice. With that I rest my case. If this has left you with any other points of contention please refer to my previous posts and #2, 3, and 4 above, especially 3 and 4. Its been real.

  • Perspective

    “You sure are imposing a lot of your personal preferences as if they’re universal ones. You might feel very attracted to women who don’t resemble earth-mothers but they’re are men who are attracted to those women just as they’re are men who like big girls and the internet makes it easier for people to find each other these days. Buuuut, why are you really here, though?”

    AMAZING!

    Simply Amazing.

    Lets go with this statement.

    If this is the case – AND A KNOWN FACT – why was this article even written?!

    If all these women who would be deemed “undesirable” by conventional or media standards ARE INFACT GETTING MEN, THEN WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WOMEN COMPLAINING ABOUT?

    According to you – Don’t worry about if you don’t meet the beauty standard because there’s armies of me out here who will scoop you up.

    Don’t worry if you’re over weight because there’s brothas out here who like big women.

    HOW COME THESE STATEMENTS NEVER COME UP – before this argument?! Hmmmm

    Why doesn’t the amount of “undesirable women” still getting men EVER COME UP before the crying and moaning about how said brotha isn’t checkin for said sister because of THE SUPPOSED WHITE BEAUTY STANDARD.

    You coming on here is a CONTRADICTION to the very point that the author and many women on here are making.

    “BROTHAS AIN’T CHECKIN FOR US BECAUSE WE’RE NOT THE STANDARD!”

    and here you come thinking that u r proving me wrong when all you are doing is PROVING THEM WRONG

    LMAO – I love it.

    So in other words going with you’re argument these women are just complaining to be complaining.

    Marvelously Brilliant!

  • Srenda

    @Perspective

    Your Perspective might be skewed by what SOME women are posting on the internet and SOME are co-signing. Because some writers on this site and other sites frequently choose to write articles about this does not mean these are unversally true. It also doesn’t mean their aren’t valid points to this. To cut to the point, son, your advice sucks. It’s negative and I’ll say it again, irresponsible and reeks of internalized bias disguised as some bullshit tough not even love like this— “Hey ah, sistas,earth Mothers, fatties, now ya just gotta face some facts about what men want…and it ain’t you.” Get with all the light skinned, skinny, garter belt wearing beauties you want to be with and be at peace with that. You are the one who has to get up and face yourself in the mirror every day and wonder why you have such a limited, adolescent, pornographic concept of beauty steeped in unabashed yet, unconscious self-hatred. Now get tuh steppin’.

  • alldawg

    very well put, it brings balance into this beauty debate…

  • Perspective

    You say:
    ” “Hey ah, sistas,earth Mothers, fatties, now ya just gotta face some facts about what men want…and it ain’t you.” Get with all the light skinned, skinny, garter belt wearing beauties you want to be with and be at peace with that.”

    Wrong! Nice try.

    The first half is correct. – The second half is garbage.

    The problems with black women THEIR interpretation of beauty are as follows.

    1) Beauty shouldn’t have to be explained or rationalized. If you have to CONVINCE a man that you are beautiful then you need to move on

    2) Conditioning – What is the point in complaining about conditioning if black women inadvertently co-sign it. Example – Weaves. Now they bother me, but they don’t bother other brothas – my main issue is regardless of what the media promotes how is a black boy supposed to gain appreciation for how black women look naturally if he never sees it. Its not about rejecting it, HE NEVER SEES IT. Then at 30 something women want to go natural and expect him to snap out of it. I’m not blaming bw – I’m saying. it clearly doesn’t help

    3) Black women who blame black men for WHAT THEY THEMSELVES HAVE INTERNALIZED AS BEAUTY. Man… There are black women out here you couldn’t get to drop the contact or the weaves if you were to put a ring on it. They only FEEL beautiful based on what they have been socialized and conditioned to believe – thanks to media. This does NOT just apply to black boys. As a matter of fact the GIRLS do significantly worse than the boys when it comes to the notorious DOLL TEST. Do you like the white doll or the black doll and why?

    4) Women who try to run to self hate arguments the moment that a black women is deemed unattractive by a black man. They always want to make an interracial comparison between two women vs a INTRAracial comparison. I don’t NEED to go to white women in order to determine if a black woman is attractive or not. I can choose among other black women. THAT IS A SET UP AND A TRAP that black women who are trying to dismiss the man’s preferences with a self hate argument.

    Its easy to say its self hate and dismiss when comparing other races and he just so happens to choose the non black woman. That is NOT so easy to do when comparing 2 black women and most people simply deem more attractive than the other. THAT should not have to be EXPLAINED. It just is.

    Jill Marie Jones (I THINK) looks better than Goldie Brooks, even though she comes in a close second – but I should have to give a dissertation as to WHY?! IT JUST IS.

    5) Women need to stop running to white beauty arguments IF and WHEN they aren’t up to snuff MINIMALLY. Don’t have horrible acne complaining about WHITE BEAUTY. Don’t be 200lbs complaining about WHITE BEAUTY. Don’t be 200lbs talking about how many degrees you got either. Are men supposed to be getting with women who are more established?! I thought we were SUPPOSED TO BE MANNING UP!? Correct.

  • CHE

    Mr., please go and take your medication. Why are you here trying to start S***T? I thought your purpose was to build and community and economic empowerment; IS THE JOB DONE? I take it the Black community is all built up and we have thriving businesses and all is well? is that why you have time to be here with your dumb and unwanted opinions, right? GO AWAY!!!!!

  • Srenda

    @CHE lol, dude really is trippin’! Kinda feel a little sorry for him actually because he really can’t tell that he’s really caught up in his own mess. I think he might watch too many reality shows or something.

  • Best Guest

    @QoNewC

    Uganda has done an excellent job at curbing HIV infection rates as well.

    It seems Senegal is catching on this too.

  • Nnaattaayy

    +1,000,000 TAE, you’re amazing <3

  • http://fuckyeahdarkgirls.tumblr.com KissOfDanger

    Funny how people say that if you’re not as pretty, and unhappy then “tweak it”. BUT, these people are usually the first to complain about people whitening their skin, wearing fake hair, and getting plastic surgery especially to erase ethnice features. The world we live in is real funny.

  • Toppin (Formerly Known As Just Sayin’)

    @Perspective (also known as SWP…yeah your rants are a dead giveaway angry little man)

    You have a right to your preference….the end. Let people be and move on with your life man.

    I have a question for you:

    I have a white friend who only dates black men. She and I get along fine because I only date white men. This particular friend told me the other day that she only dates black men because they are powerless. She said:

    “White men hold more power than black men, who truthfully don’t really have any power at all. If a black man acts like a chauvinistic pig it has no barring on the lives of white women. It might negatively impact black women, who unfortunately find themselves under the foot of black men, who themselves are at the bottom of the totem pole in our society, but it is of no consequence to white women.

    If a white man acts that way it directly impacts white women, who often find themselves working under white men, beside white men and around white men. A white woman has more power in our society than a black man…ironically thanks in large part to white men and the ideology of white supremacy. White women have more social capital than black men. Because of this a black man makes a great mate for a white woman, who doesn’t wish to be under the power of a man. No matter what her whiteness will always trump his manhood and masculinity.”

    This gave me pause. I didn’t know what to say. I would like to know your thoughts. Try to speak on it without all the anger you typically come to the table with eh?

  • Robbie

    @Tae well said. @Perspective that is why so many women on this site have encuraged black women to not let anyone including black men like you tell them how they should feel about themselves. Not all black men think like you and as a black woman, you are the type that I want to stay away from .

  • TypicalBlackWoman…

    Raised to the power ten!

  • kevin

    I’m sorry, but all this discussion of beauty is so superficial. Beauty comes from within.Sometimes that inner beauty is reflected in the skin, sometimes not. Sometime the beauty of the skin masks are darkness within. I am not immune to the being attracted more to fine looking women, but I am not proud of it either. JMO. Thank you.

  • Raysa

    I love this article!!! As a feminist and a social justice worker- You could not have told the truth in a better way!!! It is possible to change media- today we don’t just have tv- we have the internet- tmblr, facebook, youtube- a form of activism for this generation- the dot coms would be to photograph black women with clothes on!!! As a way to show they are beautiful, but you must put that label on it so that people’s seeped in colonialized minds, and deep seeded quiet racism and sexism will slowly be shed- It will take time- it’s not a fast or easy process- but social justice takes time- don’t get burned out- though you may not see progress- we are the progress we need to know our history very well!!! We are smart people we can all learn and for those who do not have that privilege- it is everyone’s responsibility to understand how we can help not to “give charity” but to right wrongs!!!!!!!!!

  • Ellie

    Ummmm, I am a little late for the party.
    Hi! I am a black Canadian female, if that even matters.

    Okay, so from what I have read in this discussion is that some people believe that there should be more examples of black beauty that caters to a wider demographic of everyday black women. As well as it is horrible that the only idealized form of beauty gloabally is eurocentric.

    This may be true, nonetheless, high fashion has never meant to by for the masses, and while it is populated by white women, most everyday white women walking down the street do not look like their high fashion counterparts. Though some of these same women try so hard to embody this ideal and fail epicially (eationg disorders etc) Just saying…

    Another topic brought up was that black women should stop looking to media run by the dominant culture for validation. Stop looking to white people for approval. Gotcha!

    Personally, I think it is very tragic that most women feel that if other people do not consider them beautiful it is enough to make them feel worthless. As if that is all a woman is good for. If you buy into that then yes the media is right. Yes, I know most young girls don’t always realize this, but they fact that they don’t realize they are being bombarded but a biased media is HIGHLY problematic. As a community we need to fix this from within, not wait for the media, casue hell is not freezing over anytime soon.

    I grew up in a household where my physicial apperance was mentioned but was never the height of my praise. My parents and family members praised me when I acheived something, got good grades, asked them to explain something I had been reading up on, or when I solved a complicated problem. As a result that is where I found my self-worth. Not because the only positive feedback I recieved was based on how pretty they thought I was or that I was amazing because I was lovely standing around doing nothing.

    If someone wants to tell me that I am pretty or sexy, well it’s cool, but that isn’t what gives me my self-worth. I feel good about myself when I am working hard, the fact that I am well-read, that I can speak another language, that I am good a sports, and that I can play different intstruments (maybe thats nerdy, I dunno).

    What I am trying to say is it really is a shame that black women are so often looked at as simply “breasts” and “ample buttocks” that is all that they can be. But because of this I believe that we need to make an extra effort to emphasize to young women that while it is nice to feel pretty and have other people tell you so, it is far more important to educate themselves and not just the stuff they teach you in school, but actively seek knowledge (for goodness sake read a book or two!, learn to do something out of their confront zone). Yes, feel flattered but there is so much more to life than “OMG those people don’t think I beautiful only sexy.”

    Here is an example,
    When I was in high school (went to a school with mainly black kids, yes it can happen in Canada), a bunch of very beautiful girls decided that they wanted to have “beauty contest,” after watching several TV shows, the school even got planners and everyone was so excited about getting to show that we could do what all the “white schools” did. However, most of the girls who entered were content to prance around sure that they would win because they were pretty, mind you most of them who thought they were pretty did because guys had told them so (they are teenagers, I know)rarely because they truly thought so, it was always based on others.

    Now, this pageant came to a screeching hault when most of these girls realized that there would be a question portion on world issues/general knowledge and a talent portion. A lot of the girls were outraged that they were required to have know things and were being asked to more than just simply walk around and be “beautiful.” Their walks sadly mimicked sexy video vixens, not a good look for anyone 14-17.

    I know this will come across as disorganized and disjointed, but I want to know what is more important? Articles that continue to stress how sad we are that other people think we are the losers of a beauty contest that is based on features we don’t have (meaning it does not apply to us, so it is bogus and not worth our time) or is sadder that so many of us male and female have internalized this so much that we neglect the fact that there is SO much more to a woman than just how she looks.

    Regardless of what you think of his work or him as a person my fave sci-fi writer (yes I am a HUGE nerd) said it best.

    “What monstrosities would walk the streets were some people’s faces
    as unfinished as their minds.” -Harlan Ellison

    That is all from this northern girl. PEACE!

    As

    I

  • http://www.facebook.com/Rivkasmom Grace Acosta

    Thank you for this comment! THAT, was beautiful. It made me cry, it’s to true.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Rivkasmom Grace Acosta

    Actually, in Japan there is a HUGE genre of Asian women in bondage (mostly marketed to white men). Black women in bondage is hella problematic, with a ton of historical baggage to go with it. You’ll see Nazi themed BDSM more than you’ll see a Black woman in chains, it’s that taboo.

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    black women are beautiful to black men…..and that is all that should matter

  • http://yahoo girish

    i love u truth sure

  • Ebony

    Did you say black women? Are you sure you’re talking about black women? Where are they? These two ladies are light skin women or mixed race women.

  • http://Fanfiction.net Jason De Villo

    So are there any places where this doesn’t exist? Switzerland? Norway? Zimbabwe?
    I’m sure the Asians don’t care.

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