He stumbled over the explosive words as if his solemn, quiet tone could dampen their impact.

He paused and struggled with them right until they spilled, with a hesitant life of their own, from the lips of the first black President:

“For me, it is important, for me personally, to go ahead and affirm, that I feel… same sex couples should be able to get married.”

When President Barack Obama stopped by ABC’s Good Morning America to give the world an update on his marriage equality “evolution,” that one sentence exposed the deep chasm between black evangelicals and true liberalism, forever changing the course of political history.

In the frantic days since “The Announcement,” black civil rights leaders such Rev. Al Sharpton, Rev. Jessie Jackson, Rev. Joseph Lowery, and Chairman Emeritus of the NAACP, Julian Bond, have bravely broken with a socially conservative Black America that has dipped itself in pious self-righteousness when speaking out on the “evil,” “unholy,” and “ungodly” nature of homosexuality. Though many black evangelicals have voiced support for the decision, their voices are, unfortunately, being drowned out by a chorus of bigotry that typically lies dormant.

It is times like these that one realizes that for some in the so-called Black Church — which overwhelmingly supported Obama in 2008 when he was rocking back and forth in church pews across America — “change we can believe in” translates into hypocritically judging those “sins they don’t partake in” when the change doesn’t align with Christian ideology.

The question on the table is not whether evangelicals believe that it is subjectively “right” for gay and lesbians to marry, but if they can stop moralizing the civil rights of other people in this country based on their personal religious beliefs. No church is being asked to perform marriages between people of the same sex, but to simply re-evaluate the arrogant stances that churches should dictate policy.

But apparently the answer is still no.

I don’t remember one Bible lesson where Jesus said that two people can’t go to City Hall, get married, and have that marriage recognized legally, even if he didn’t agree. Should the Christian church, one church that cannot possibly represent all people, dictate the laws of the United States? What if, hypothetically, there was another religion that the majority in this country adhered to — and their beliefs being implemented would deny the collective civil rights of black Americans – how many Christians would be in accord?

Love it or hate it, religious doctrine has no place in this conversation. We’re talking about the president’s political position — which is that he thinks the states have the authority to decide the issue, but he supports marriage equality – and many in the “Black Church” have decided to damn him to hell as a “false prophet.”

My grandmother shared some wisdom with me when I was growing up. She would always say, “Never be so heavenly minded, that you’re no earthly good.” In my humble opinion, it would be extremely beneficial for more people to hear that message, if only for a moment to better understand the separation of church and state. Let’s be clear: Obama’s opinion could lead to people marching all over the country with rainbow banners, joined by Liza Minnelli and her back-up dancers singing “It’s Raining Men” and it wouldn’t matter.

This is still a states’ issue.

Churches don’t have to do a thing but keep preaching whatever gospel they choose, which means that the issue lies in the fact that Obama dared to voice an opinion that didn’t align with black evangelicals. For an institution, which for the most part is rooted in black liberation theology, it is amazing that many are threatening to turn their backs on him because he believes that the LGBT community deserves equal civil rights under the law.

In an expected twist, for those who don’t want to appear sanctimonious the argument takes on a more nuanced tone. It’s not that they don’t want “gays” to have the right to marry, it’s just that “gay rights” aren’t as important as civil rights. This binary opposition is extremely problematic and does nothing but limit our collective progression as a nation.

Simply put, equality for the LGBT community is a step forward for African-Americans because many in the LBGT community are African-American. 

They are our mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, friends and yes, even our cousins n’nem. They are our nurses, doctors, lawyers, educators, and yes, they face the same racism that many of us face on a daily basis. It is absolutely ridiculous that, for some reason, many African-Americans, specifically heterosexuals, feel that we own the patent on oppression.

Many of us will fight against immigration laws, because “Mexicans are taking all the jobs;” some will even assault the reproductive rights of women, because they’re “murdering black babies;” the majority of us will ostracize the LGBT community because it’s “against God’s plan;” but when the narrative shifts to issues that face the black community at-large, many of us become hypocritical broken records moaning over and over “your blues ain’t like mine.”

Well, you know what? Everyone has their own truth, and it doesn’t have to be the same to be just as painful.

I often do not agree with President Barack Obama, but in this, I support him 100%. Even as a senator, he stated that faith has no place in politics and that because we do not share common spiritual eyesight, we can only share common laws. Most powerfully, he says that “religiously motivated [politicians] must translate their concerns into universal — not religious — values.”

This means that any Christian who voted for him and is now withdrawing support after his announcement was either not paying attention, voted for him strictly because he’s black  — or thought that he would be swayed by the huge levels of evangelical support into translating Christian doctrine into United States policy.

And it’s time they admitted that to themselves.

I’m not sure exactly where Obama’s support in the black community will land after the dust settles; but for me, I will take equality over religious hypocrisy every day of the week and twice on Sunday – and let the chips fall where they may.

  • Emme

    Great article, great points.

    This sentiment is reflected by Mayor Cory Booker:


    I hope people are able to put aside their personal beliefs to respect the greater issue of individual civil rights under the law…

  • L

    Man, who cares what Black people think?

    At one time because of our history in this country and our treatment and Blacks response to this treatment, Blacks had some moral authority; We have lost that. Blacks need to shut up their moralizing.

    For decades, we have had Black men standing in front of the world spewing their poisonous garbage and hate and calling it rap and hip hop music with a phat beat. All the n*****rs, H****s, b****s, etc; All the talk of killing each other, the hate they have shown Black women because they are Black with Black features, displaying shamelessly all of their self hate and powerlessness,( not to mention all the other issues that we talk about endlessly and never solve) and EVERYONE(Black women and men) supporting it or they were very quiet(same thing). What kind of men do this? Where in the history of the world has another group of men done this and the women so silent and passive?

    Why do you think Black men show up here and they are also on Youtube preaching at and trying to school Black women; Why dont they go to stormfront, why dont they preach to Rush Limbaugh, David Duke, Fox news the police, each other. Why? Because they way the go at Black women, you would think Black women are killing them in the streets,deny them employment, etc.Why? Because NO ONE gives a damn what Black men have to say about anything and the only ones who pay any attention to Black men are Black women.

    We are dead people.

    With all of this, Blacks have killed their right to moralize to anyone about anything. Those Black religious leaders, LOL, who have stayed silent for the most part through all of this have no POWER OR MORAL AUTHORITY and them and Black people as a whole need to shut up. No one cares.

  • befree

    Many have turned their backs on him because he believes that the LGBT community deserves equal civil rights under the law. Proof please? There is no evidence that LARGE NUMBERS of Black Christians said they will vote against Obama on this issue. Did his pro-choice stance cost him votes? I am disgusted by the exploitation of a false controversy. Black People (Including Black Churchgoers) Are Not a Monolith, contrary to popular belief. We approach elections with the same thoughtfulness and complexities as everybody else. I’ve always found it insulting to say that we do not engage in a serious decision-making process around this. For black voters who are opposed to same-sex marriage, however, there is no evidence that it is a galvanizing issue at the polls. There has been a lot of unfounded conjecture that black support for the president will wane substantially, with absolutely no data to substantiate that and I see black folks playing into all across cable news and on blogs. For example, even though 58 percent of Black voters supported the prop 8 measure, which overturned the right of same-sex couples to marry in California, 90 percent of that same electorate still voted for Obama. The massive support held up despite the fact that Obama had spoken against Proposition 8 himself.
    You didn’t see any falloff from black voters because Obama said that he believes we shouldn’t be discriminating at the ballot box. Other examples, his repeal of DADT and his decision to stop defending the Defense of Marriage Act, he still has a high approval rating among black folks (Including Black Churchgoers). In surveys on what Black voters consider to be the most important problems in the country gay marriage does not even show up. SMH.
    Call me crazy, but one would do better appealing to folks on practical issues they could agree with i.e. health care, education, unemployment etc. than trying to challenge/ change their core religious beliefs. Religion and politics should be separate for those hold elected positions and HOW they govern. However, religion can play any role or no role at all in the individual voter’s decision making process. See that’s how it works.
    Some numbers that NEVER get noticed
    Pew Research
    Since 2008, the proportion of African Americans favoring gay marriage has increased from 26% to 39%, while opposition has fallen from 63% to 49%.
    Black folks ((Including Black Churchgoers) are far more politically sophisticated than folks give us credit.

  • Toppin (Formerly Known As Just Sayin’)

    Hmm very good points here. However, I think part the responsibility for these men falls squarely on the shoulders of their mothers (see my comment on the article titled: A Future Mother’s Thoughts: A Letter to My Unborn Daughter. I believe black mothers are raising their sons very differently from their daughters (whether or not a father is in the picture seems insignificant because the results appear to be the same). Read my comment on that article before you judge me for faulting their mothers. The evidence behind my theory is clear. My theory explains that deafing silence you hear from black women concerning black men’s behavior.

    Moving on…

    Reading your comment and many others I’ve read on this site one is left questioning why the hell do black women want anything to do with black men? If we are indeed dead as a people I think for some it is a welcome death.

    Long before there was hip hop there were books like Soul On Ice, which also displayed black men’s hatred and contempt of black women. And as you point out not a word was said by these “moral” pimps in the pulpit. In fact Mr. Cleaver, a self-proclaimed rapist of light-skinned black women and white women (he thought dark-skinned black women were too inferior to rape) was praised for his book. Black men called him righteous. Mind you these are the same men who had so much to say when Alice Walker hit the scene DECADES LATER with The Color Purple, in which she portrayed (and she did redeem the character in the end of the book), a black man as a brutal and cruel individual…similar to way black men portray themselves and feel righteous doing so.

    The real reason why you NEVER see or hear black men collectively going after Rush, Fox News etc is because they fear white men. It is as clear as day. They know it. White men know it. And black women know it.

    All their bravado and machoism is a false representation of themselves. It is a way of hiding insecurity.

    I honestly think this is where the hatred of black women comes into play. If anyone has witnessed the utter powerlessness of black men, it is black women and they resent it. They see the look of pity in black women’s eyes and they resent it. They resent it even more when you, as a black woman, fall hook, line and sinker for the man they fear and hate. It’s much easier to take their frustrations out on other powerless people (black women and other black men) than take it out on the individuals they fear.

    Now here is where I think things are going to get very interesting with the black community and the issue of gay marriage:

    If you are like me, and you live in a place with a decent population of black people, you have probably noticed what seems like a rise in black homosexuality. Black men and black women alike are proudly coming out the closet (?) People you just knew were straight five or six years ago are suddenly gay and happily in relationships with members of the same sex. From my observation most of these “happy” gay unions involve black WOMEN.

    Question: Is there a fear from the black community, especially from black preachers (read: men), that black women MIGHT find a solution to their marriage woes (if you can call it that) via same sex marriage? Would such unions solve the problems of man sharing, gender imbalance and single parent homes? Would such unions eventually marginalize black men (similar to the way black women are marginalize by interracial relationships)?

    Something to think about.

  • jamesfrmphilly

    with friends like you black people don’t need enemies……sucks to be U

  • jamesfrmphilly

    they are queer, they are here, get over it…….

  • http://www.pyramidoftruth.com Asar Nebankh

    It is no accident that those “civil rights leaders” are espousing that men should marry men and women should marry women. Those freakozoids are part of the boule and occult masonic organization. People such as jesse jackson, al sharpton and that sickening eric dyson. Years back a man marrying a man would be unthinkable, then later it was a laughable joke, now its taken a life of its own. With the world heading in its downward spiral there will soon be a great separation and only those who escape the net of this sickness will be saved from the animalistic spirit of degeneration. The dye is set and the wheat is being separated from the tares. Those who are of the enemy of life will try to persuade others to follow their course thinking that in numbers their sinful nature will defeat the natural order, however they are mistaken and doomed.

  • apple

    ooo i just want to see where the comments go in this post
    *i have popcorn yall*

  • Ms. Information

    I disagree…I will not be made to feel as if I am personifying hatred if I disagree with same sex marraige….it is really funny how this separation of church and state occurs though…judges still place hands over bibles to get sworn in…the money still states in God we trust…yes, the bible clearly takes a stand on homosexuality, fornication, all sexual sin which I personally do not separate one from the other…but I refuse to be bullied into believing that the gay struggle and the black struggle are one and the same…they are NOT.

  • http://www.itsoftenbeensaid.wordpress.com Sasha

    I am right there along with you. Just as people have the RIGHT to support gay marraige, there is also the same and equal RIGHT for people to oppose it. I will not be out there picketing against homosexuals at an LGBT equal rights parade HOWEVER I will not be marching in that parade right along side of them. I dislike how some people try to bully others into believing what they do, especially when it comes to gay rights and when you disagree you’re called a bigot, homophobic and every other negative name under the sun. Its sickening to me. I don’t care what they do in their bedrooms, I have no friends who are homosexuals, I don’t hate them or feel any particular way towards them however I do not believe they should be able to get married. And it is my right to believe that so if that makes me a bigot then oh well, stay ignorant folks!

  • Yb


    “I will not be out there picketing against homosexuals at an LGBT equal rights parade HOWEVER I will not be marching in that parade right along side of them”


    My stance exactly I will not dedicate time and energy to oppose nor will that time and energy be used to support it.

  • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

    Hey Kirsten *waving*, we ain’t friends today!!!

    “Simply put, equality for the LGBT community is a step forward for African-Americans because many in the LBGT community are African-American. ”

    So are you in effect saying that people should show support because their are many who are part of the LGBT community?! Weak ARGUMENT.—–>in my opinion.

    To paraphrase, Ms.Info “the gay and race struggle are separate entities, and they should be examined separately”

    *By the way, I am for same sex couples getting married*

  • http://themodernmedicineman d-rhyme

    Blacks not at issue. White vote will determine election. Many more will join conservative cause than already have done. Barack will fall even further behind in polls. Making this an issue on gay marriage helped to defeat Al Gore. So I do not understand this non strategy by LBGT. Black preachers did not bring this up so it is diversionary Tactic by the real culprits. Blaming black folk will not help your cause.

  • CurlySue

    I have Snowcaps!

  • Ms. Information

    and some would think that since you are for gay marraige and I am not that we cannot be civilized and still be cool with each other…disagreements are part of every day adult life..this is what I want some people to understand…GM African Mami, have a great day girlie!

  • RJ

    No one has ever stated that being black and gay is the same thing. No one. What people have said is that there are MANY SIMILARITIES in the way that both groups are treated. I am a gay woman and being gay is an immutable part of who I am. Just like being a woman. Just like being black. And when you look at the discrimination that has occurred in this country based on race, you will find that the same arguments used to justify treating blacks differently, were and are used to treat gay people differently.

    -The Bible was used to justify black people’s enslavement; the Bible is used to justify discrimination against gay people.
    -Black people were not allowed to serve in the military because racists thought it would be too disruptive; gay people were not allowed to serve openly in the military because people thought it would be disruptive
    -Black people could not legally marry in the United States during slavery; gay people are not allowed to marry
    -Black people were/are thought of us being bad and unclean; gay people are thought of as being bad an unclean
    -Blacks were/are thought of us as being hyper sexual; gays are thought of us a being hypersexual
    -Blacks were/ denied jobs and housing because of their race; gays are denied jobs and housing because of their sexuality
    -Black people are considered to be disease laden; gay men are considered to be disease laden

    I could go on and on about the parallels, but the reality is that there are many similarities in the way both groups were and are treated. To deny that is to be blind to the reality. In many of the arguments made against gay people, you could literally replace the word “gay” with “black”. It just saddens me to see so much homophobia coming from a community that continues to experience so much discrimination.

  • Mr Jay

    it’s not about equality because if it were the discussion would be civil unions that are afforded all the benefits the States give marriage. Marriage=Church. This is a campaign for social acceptance and compromising the church as an opponent.

  • Moses Married Zipporah By the way…

    Thanks for perpetuating the sterotypes of The supporters and Non-supporters of the lgbt community!

    By the way this article was useless in fighting for the cause. These types of articles sway people away, yet the people who write them feel they show “support”. The name of the game is “inclusion” not “seclusion”. Know it or not your gonna need everybody to fight for this cause to win, including the “church goers” smh.

    I don’t support gay marriage but looking at it from a stand point if I did.

  • RJ

    Marriage does not equal church. It never has and never will. Marriage existed long before the concept of church. And there are people of all faiths and even people who don’t belong to any faith that are “married”.

    Secondly, civil unions are not adequate because we would have restructure all of the language that currently exists that relate to marriage-related benefits and laws. It would be a bureaucratic mess. Why do we need all of the semantic gymnastics. Canada has universal marriage rights and they are doing just fine (for ten years). There are religious folks there too and they made it out okay. Let two consenting adults get their marriage certificate and be done with it. People who don’t agree with gay marriage don’t have to marry a gay person and they can hold on to their beliefs.

  • Yb

    ^^^^^This comment is a prime example as to why many black do not support gay rights. Many gay people (mainly white gay people) like to participate in the oppression Olympics with black people as if the discrimination that gay people experienced in this country could ever even BEGIN to be compared to that of blacks.

    RJ you forgot about to include intersection of race and homosexuality in your list. Compare the privileges and dicriminations of gay white males to that of heterosexual black people then make a list. Race in this society is a greater factor than sexual orientation. White privilege can afford white gays more than my straight ass can ever dream.

    It’s also that white privilege that leads to black people being seen as the main opposers of gay marriage, when we are only 12% of the population, are not the ones passing gay marriage bans in NC, and hold no power in the House or Senate. So please miss we with the civil rights appropriating list that gays in mainstream (white) movement like to throw around.

  • apple


  • RJ

    @Ms.Information and Sasha…

    Thinking that someone doesn’t deserve the same rights and privileges that you have because of something that they cannot control makes you a bigot. Sorry. If you have children and one of them happens to be gay, do you think it is fair that your heterosexual child can get married but your gay child can’t. So, if you have a heterosexual child who is in a dysfunctional relationship, they should be able to get married, but your gay child who is in a healthy long-term relationship should be denied all the rights and privileges that your heterosexual child is granted?

    Because of what, the Bible? The holy book that would have never known anything about if your ancestors were enslaved and or Africa was not colonized. The holy book that was written hundreds of years ago by a bunch of MEN who looked nothing like you in a time when people thought the world was flat. A book that reduces you, as women, to property. A book that supports polygamy and incest. A book that declares tattoos, birth control, shaved beards, eating shellfish, and wearing mixed fabrics as abominations. Seriously? A book that says that you can rape a woman and and pay her father to marry her.

  • Lady P

    I couldn’t agree with you more. Being connected to both worlds of the traditional black church as well as an advocate for civil rights, I was well aware of the political challenge that President Obama would encounter.

    African-Americans simply need to “wake-up” in the sense that religious doctrines have a separate component from political decisions. Political decisions are mandated for the “civil rights” for all mankind to be treated fairly. The problem we need to rectify as much as possible is to teach the fundamentals of the separation pertaining to church and state. Hopefully, change will evolve from these efforts to regain much needed support and drive of the 2008 election. This has to be taught initially due to the narrow-mindedness of the black church. Once we connect their minds that the LGBT community consists of our loved ones with various careers “contributing members of this society”, the black church will realize that this is a battle of common decency for fair treatment and equal rights.

    One aspect which amazes me is that the church’s evolution is still stagnated within some areas of forward-thinking. In order to saturate our community with economic growth, higher education, and political awareness, more than religious tradition must be taught. The black church must realize if non-support of President Obama takes place, our health care, financial aid (college loans), small-business loans; and so many other areas will continue to be in jeopardy. The “bigger” picture is needed here.

  • RJ


    I have REPEATEDLY SAID THAT IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. Can we get that out of the way. I agree that it is not the same thing. But, there are similarities. That is my point. If you want to pretend that there aren’t, that’s just intellectually dishonest.

    Just like there are similarities to the way that black people and women have been treated. But, I wouldn’t dare say that it is the same thing.

    If anyone is participating in the oppression Olympics, it is black folks. We love to pretend that we are the only people who have been oppressed.

  • http://www.jessicasimien.com Jessica

    In a perfect world, people would be okay with disagreeing. I’m a Christian and I’m really on the fence about this. My spirit tells me people can’t help who they love, but my religion tells me homosexuality is a sin.

    In my mind, God made us all and planned our lives so therefore He had to know that at some point a person would become homosexual, right? Would He still create someone that way and purposely go against His Word? But then again people don’t believe some folks are born gay either. Because I don’t really have a SOLID opinion on it, some may say there is something wrong with me or I can’t be a true Christian. Anyway though…

    I still support Obama. Everyone has a right to their own opinion and can support whatever or whomever they choose to support. I think that is the main problem with him announcing his support – people just assumed he was going to agree with the majority of his voters.

  • Chrissy

    If anyone is participating in the oppression Olympics, it is black folks. We love to pretend that we are the only people who have been oppressed.

    Exactly. It is black people that do this. It is also black people who like to pretend that black AND gay people dont exist.

    I know plenty of black and gay people who say they have been given a harder time for their sexuality, not their race. But black people will have a heart attack if someone said that. A lot of black people just cant take the fact that someone might have it harder than them.

    What I want to know is this. Why does a certain belief system get to dominate another? Especially, if you do not plan to have a gay marriage? How does it effect you?

    We black people love to pretend we are so holy. But if you look at the stats on us, you can see that we clearly dont have a problem with anything else. But we’ll have a heart attack over gay marriage???

    Also…be careful what you preach against and who you hate. Cause the same thing might turn up in your children. *Words from my mother*

  • RJ

    It’s funny that whenever someone lists out the parallels all people can do is scream, “It’s not the same thing”. Well, duh! No one is saying that.

    But, can you disprove any of the similarities I listed?

  • Yb

    “If anyone is participating in the oppression Olympics, it is black folks. We love to pretend that we are the only people who have been oppressed.”

    I see you fell for the okey doke that anti-black white queers love to spew out. Too busy trying to gain the right to marry that you attack people that have NO POWER! Do you really think that putting your race behind your sexual orientation will allow you to be accepted within the mainstream movement? When speaking of gay rights they are not thinking about your black ass. To them you are a nlgger first and another vote, number and face that can be used in the shadows, never as a representation.

    Many white queers attack black and brown people (like you are doing) as if we hold the key to want you want. When will they and the gay POC who are marginalized and not represented in the mainstream gay movement by gay white queers attack your main oppressors? White Christian conservatives? But I guess asking white queers to check their own race of people and stop blaming blacks for their woes (something that whites have done since the DAWN of TIME) would be to much for them.

  • http://www.itsoftenbeensaid.wordpress.com Sasha

    @RJ: Here’s a tiny violin, oh nevermind I see you already have one. While I’m in the business of being generous- would you like some cheese with that whine? Call me a bigot all you’d like, I don’t know you, don’t care to know you but you are free to continue to write your dissertations on the plight of Black homosexuals, their parallels to the Civil Rights struggle/ movement and the bigots like myself that hate them. Please don’t use my future children in your “argument” (couldn’t think of a better word to describe your response…actually tirade would have been fitting). Continue to use the Bible for/ against whatever point you are trying to make- appeals to emotion and strawmans won’t and don’t work on me. Have a good day :)

  • The Comment

    I look at the black church as something that holds blacks back. Preaching hate, sexism and antiquated values from the 17th century is not a good look for any black person trying to live in a global world. And speaking of rappers….it is really funny how they speak about having money…when in comparison to Arabs, chinese and others…they are sooo broke. I mean really…….how can you sell a fantsy you are leasing. I know some Arabs down the street from me that own half the homes in my new development. They build a new mosqe every Saturday. I don’t hear a peep from them but I see they saying big things with what their money buys. Some black men… (of course not all. Of course not every and of course not those who know better) sports players, rappers and pastors are so gassed up from being idolized by white women and men that they think everyone wants them. When that is not the reality in the least.

  • jamesfrmphilly

    it is really easy to divide black people and get us to fighting over something.
    i wonder if that is why we are so oppressed?

  • S.

    If MOST American Evangelicals don’t support ‘Gay Marriage’ why are Black Evangelicals the only ones being targeted as scapegoats????

    There’s tinge of racism in these articles and news stories that focus on the ‘Black church’s’ stance on gay marriage. MOST Christians, regardless of race, do not support homosexuality in any way, shape or form so why are people focusing so hard on the Black population?

    Could it be because America likes to dangle our (conditional) freedom in front of our faces as if it can disappear if we dare to make an opposing move?

    White Americans are free to disagree on any moral (or amoral) issues without getting that ‘how dare you, you should know better’ finger pointed at them, no?


  • Nikki

    The Black Church and Gay Marriage: 5 Things I’d Like to Ask

    After reading a peculiar article about the black church on CNN this morning, I admittedly had a moment of pause. The article seems to imply that the lack of support for gay marriage within the black church is not only unsubstantiated, but further undermined because the bible being quoted is the same book used to justify the institution of slavery. As a proponent of gay marriage myself (I have no problem with it), I was admittedly disappointed by the CNN depiction of the black church as a haven of unsophisticated dimwits who need to move to the 21st century.

    This led me to consider five questions I’d like to ask both CNN and the liberal Democratic establishment as it pertains to the issue of gay marriage:

    1) Do you think that Black people work for you?

    Ever since the Democrats backed African Americans on the issue of civil rights, some have behaved as if we owe them a lifetime of gratitude. Our issues are swept to the side, and we only get a voice if we express concern over gay rights, the environment, immigration and all the other things that liberals care about. Even some of our most prominent civil rights leaders end up bringing issues to the black community that lead listeners to give them the side eye: “Why is Rev/Dr/Pastor (fill in the blank) talking about immigration and the environment, but never discussing poverty, racism and mass incarceration?” While certain black public figures may work for the Democrats, the rest of the community does not. There isn’t enough money to pay off everyone.

    2) Why aren’t you making the same critique of white Christians?

    The notion that African Americans are somehow psychologically diseased for disagreeing with a popular liberal viewpoint gives one serious cause for concern. Ostracizing the black church and its members in this way implies that African Americans are not the “cool kids,” and should give in to political peer pressure. All the while, I’ve barely heard a peep about white Christians who read from the same bible. There are white people who oppose gay marriage too.

    3) Slavery? Did you really have to go there?

    Let’s be clear: Gay is NOT the new black and black will never be the old gay.

    Making reference to slavery as a way to convince members of the black church to support gay marriage is about the foulest, most distasteful type of persuasion known to man. Slavery is the emotional trump card, and the thing that lies in “don’t even go there” territory. I would never ask a Jewish man to support Affirmative Action because “black opportunities are being slaughtered like Jews in a furnace.” Homosexuals being disallowed to marry is not, in any way, equivalent to an institution that led to the murder, castration, beating, rape, torture and enslavement of a group of people for over 400 years. Let’s get that one untwisted right now.

    4) Do black people seem ignorant to you?

    Liberal paternalism can be a worse form of racism than even the Republicans can dish out. There are some who get angry at black Americans for having views that differ from the liberal establishment, as if they are in dire need of additional enlightenment. Perhaps one day others will realize that the “good lawud’ endowed all of us with a similar number of brain cells and that black people aren’t wrong for being different.

    5) Can this debate be handled with civility and mutual respect?

    While one can appreciate the efforts of Team Obama to convince African Americans in the church to abandon their beliefs, the reality is that the persuasion process is probably going to take some time. I am consistently fascinated with the psychological aerobics that take place when the Obama Administration makes an announcement that is not in the interest of African Americans (such as the appointment of Elena Kagan to the Supreme Court in spite of her racially-discriminatory hiring record). I am even more impressed by the amount of effort spent to convince black folks that the decision was good for them, when all indicators say that it was not.

    The fact is that there are some decisions that will be made that aren’t going to make everyone happy. In the case of gay marriage, all Americans aren’t going to be on-board. It’s OK to have a dissenting opinion, even if you’re black, CNN needs to respect that.

    Dr. Boyce Watkins is a Professor at Syracuse University and founder of the Your Black World Coalition

  • Nikki

    My post was meant for everyone, sorry S.

  • http://themodernmedicineman.com d-rhyme

    @RJ. you asked a question regarding your similarities. They are not similar because of the question my 6th grade cousin once asked me. He asked, “why are some people saying they want people to like persons who are different from them, but they do not like a sex that is different from them”? He said he was confused that persons are called bigots if they are white and don’t like blacks but those who don’t like their opposite sex do not consider themselves prejudiced or bigoted. Ok we all know what your DNA says you are so please explain to my little cousin your answer. I could use a little clarity myself. So please enlighten me. thanks

  • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

    Hey girlie!

    Differences in life create the sameness of our existence.

    So long as there is no disrespect, I could give a flying hoot. Everybody is entitled to an opinion, and opinions are ass holes, everybody got one!!

    Good day to you my dear partner in crime!!

    iQgraphics, what sayest thou dear?!

  • Nikki

    Gay people please take my advice. You need to have a meeting with some of these hetero supporters.These heterosexual supporters are doing you a big disservice. They are antagonizing black church for no reason at all. When all is said and done they have really nothing to lose in this fight. Have there been some mass demonstrations by the “black church” that I missed? So why is Kirsten West Savali calling black church people hypocrites and Dyson calling them sexual rednecks?

  • http://commentarybyvalentina.wordpress.com/ Val

    Religion is and has always been about hatred. This issue shows that nothing has changed and nothing will change anytime soon.

    It’s amazing to me how one unfavored minority group is so hellbent on denying another unfavored minority rights that at one point they too were denied.

    For most of American history it was illegal for Black people to marry. Then after Black people could legally marry other Black people it was illegal for Black people to marry Whites.

    And yet there are so many Black people that would deny same gender couples the right to marry.

    The irony is overwhelming.

  • RJ

    @ D-rhyme?


  • http://themodernmedicineman.com d-rhyme

    Darling Nikki. Very well said. In fact, it is even likely that because Barak is black, he is “being told what to do”. No other president before was forced into this position. It is clear to me with this attack on the black church that if balcks do not do what they are told, they will not be funded or will be attacked. I wonder if Barak said, “yessuh Massah”.

  • S.

    I would suggest you read your Bible more and have talks with God about this issue b/c you don’t seem to understand it fully

    God didn’t ‘make [anybody] homosexual’ as you suggest

    We all are sinful creatures, we all have our struggles with sin

    Some of us struggle with addiction (gambling, alcohol, drugs, food)
    some of us struggle with temptation of the flesh (fornication, adultery, homosexuality)
    some of us struggle with perversion (homosexuality, pedophilia, pornography, etc.).
    Some of us struggle with GREED

    WE ALL have something. The only difference between the gay community and the Black (church-going) community is that Black church goers KNOW when they’re wrong and if they continue to sin it isn’t because they think the sin is ‘how God made them’, it’s because they want to

    The homosexual community can try to morally justify their lifestyle, here on Earth, all they want to but that’s not going to make a difference when they die and must face their judgement day

    I was against “Gay marriage” originally. At this point, I am not putting up a fight if they want Gay marriage to be legalized but I am not naive

    Mr Jay is right

    You must see the bigger picture. Please do not be simpleminded and believe that the gay community ONLY wants the right to get married. No. This fight is about something much bigger. It’s about turning homosexuality into a moral “right” (right as in opposite of wrong) in society and making it taboo for anyone to openly disagree with. The rich White gays want to enjoy ALL their privileges and the strong Christian folk are getting in their way and so they attack the weakest link of all Christians, the Black church. Because of our horrific status in society, obviously, one can assume Black people are in NO POSITION to judge the wicked lifestyle of other groups so this is being an easy picking

    Ultimately, it will become illegal for Churches to deny gays from being married in the church buildings. THAT’S when they know their ultimate goal has come into full fruition

    Some gays say they don’t care about being married in all churches and that’s not their goal. They lie, simply put. Because if Gay marriage is LEGALIZED and general society has fully accepted it as something morally right then denying it ANYWHERE on American soil will (and should) be considered discrimination.

    Even gay atheists would (eventually) care about being discriminated in churches

  • RJ


    LMAO…ok…I can tell you that I have experienced more discrimination and HATRED for being gay than I have ever experienced for being Black. POINT. BLANK. PERIOD. Ask ANY gay person of color and they will tell you the same thing. I don’t need white people to tell me that, I can tell you that from ALL of my MANY experiences. So, please miss me with that bullish. You don’t know what we experience because all you can speak to is your experiences as a black woman (presumably).

    And yes, there is racism in the white queer community. But, by and large my white gay friends are much more aware of racism and discrimination and are much more open minded than my white straight friends. Can you guess why?

  • http://themodernmedicineman.com d-rhyme

    RJ. are you not going to even try? my god, your silence is soooooo LOUD. if you do not attempt to answer then you need to join the larger community. It is a choice you know.

  • RJ


    Barack has always supported gay marriage. All the way back to 1996. He only started to “evolve” on the issue when he entered the national stage. He was an emphatic supporter up until that point. He wasn’t forced into doing anything because the gay community was going to support him in this election anyway. People need to stop acting like the only way a major black official can support gay rights is if they are forced to do it. There are many black people who fully support the gay community and they don’t need a gun held to their heads.

  • S.

    You made a posting mistake but it’s ironic, your comment delves into exactly what I was alluding to

    Thank you

  • Nikki

    Yes, Val Martin Luther King is such a hateful man or is it only about hatred when it does not agree with you.

  • Ms. Information

    RJ, say what you must, for me, it’s just a difference of opinion, there is no need for me to call you the typical names that you are called, as you have called me a bigot and do not know me…God will judge…this is my opinion.

  • RJ


    Please take a permanent seat. I am agnostic. Never have been religious and never will be. I don’t need to consult a Bible for moral guidance. You know why? Because the Bible is not the be all end all of morality. If you actually took the time to read the Bible, you would find that the Bible endorses a lot of what would we would consider to be immoral behavior.

    Me being gay hurts no one. Not a single person is hurt because of it. I have been gay all of my life. Before I even knew what gay was. Before I even had words to describe my feelings. Even proponents of ex-gay ministries have come out an said that for most people, being gay or bisexual is immutable. In fact, every study done on ex-gay therapy shows that it has a less than 5% success rate (and that’s generous). You cannot change being gay or bisexual. So, my question to you is this: Why would “God” make me gay only so that he condemn me for it? And where does that leave gay people? The millions of gay people in the world. Should we pray the gay away? Ok, many of us do that and we are still gay. So, what’s the next choice? Being lonely for the rest of our lives to satisfy your “God”? Being in unsatisfying relationships with members of the opposite sex? Killing ourselves? What would you have us do?

    Why are human beings so stuck on the Bible that they cannot think critically? God created hermaphrodites but he didn’t create gay people? Seriously? Are we that stupid that we can’t accept that there is biological and sexual diversity within humanity? Come on, people. I am so tired of these stupid ass debates. Why is it that we have to prove our humanity to people? Why are we even debating whether or not I, a woman who you have never met and will probably never meet, has the right to marry another adult woman who I share my life with? Why is that your business or anyone else’s for that matter?

    Who and what gives you the right to tell me that I am flawed and need fixing?

    Chris Rock said it best, “Everyone knew Johnny was gay when he was six, so why are we mad when he has a boyfriend when he’s nineteen?”.

  • Yb


    I can see you straw manned my response by dodging the fact that black people are being unfairly attacked by gays of all colors, while white conservatives are bring left unscathed. Nowhere did you debate the point in my response. No where did you answer the questions sposes. But you spoke of your experiences (which do not qualify as universal fact, which had nothing to do with what I said) to deflect.

    Maybe when you can stay on topic and not deflect I’ll value what you say. Until then you can continue to laugh your ass off at your inability to convince the people you desperately need to support gay marriage why we should.

    You have a good day.

  • RJ

    1) If you think that white Christians are going unscathed with regards to their attitude towards gay people, you need to read more than just black blogs. Gay and straight people have been debating this very issue for a very long time.

    2) Of course the first black President’s opinion on gay marriage will spur a conversation about the black church’s stance on the issue because black people disagree with gay marriage at a much higher rate than ANY OTHER RACE in America.

  • http://www.jessicasimien.com Jessica

    @S (because I don’t see a reply link above) I think you should re-read my post and see that my statement was more of a question than a suggestion. Don’t make assumptions about my Bible reading habits please and thank you.

    People seem to get their panties in a bunch when you ask questions…what is wrong with asking questions of people who seem to know it all? (yes I’m being sarcastic)

    Promote knowledge and understanding rather than judging what parts of the Bible I read and don’t read.

  • http://www.jessicasimien.com Jessica

    Hmph! My thoughts exactly!

  • http://themodernmedicineman.com d-rhyme

    Hermaphrodism is extremely, extremely rare and you comparing gay to it proves that is an illness. Cant you see that? Hermaphrodites have a genetic defect that causes most if not all to not be able to reproduce. Further your argument then justifies bigotry if is genetic. So it is genetic or inborn that whites do not like blacks. I can see them using the same argument as you. No the truth is that all persons have masculine and feminine characteristics and in african cultures and native american cultures overly feminine men still marry women because they are adequately socialized to live with the norms of the larger community. I am still confused and cannot explain what you said to my cousin. sorry. cursing and getting angry over a question from a child does not show civility or respect. Please tell me you can do better than this. Otherwise it is only proof that you have no real interest in gaining acceptance by using honey to catch flies but you want ot get angry and start cursing. Wow!!!!! It only proves you have no argument. it shows that you are the bully.

  • http://www.itsoftenbeensaid.wordpress.com Sasha

    @Yb- RJ strawmans because he doesn’t have anything tangible or of meaning to say after you’ve made it explicitly clear that despite all of his go to points you are still going to stand firm on your opinion of the issue. After he realizes this, he becomes frustrated and goes the route that most people go when they realize they’re not going to get one over you: they deflect, name call and try to make you look like you’re the one with problems. I see this behavior typically in individuals ranging from age 3 to 16 but have noticed that it’s increasingly gaining ground in adults and online commenters on blogs.

  • RJ


    Hermaphroditus is not an “illness”. So, strike one.

    Hermaphroditus is not genetic. So, strike two.

    And homosexuality is also rare. Only about 2-3 percent of the populations is gay. So, strike three.

    And I don’t need your acceptance. Do you think I care what you think about me? That’s some straight up patronizing and arrogant foolishness. You cannot accept me all you want. You don’t even need to like me.

  • RJ

    @YB, so it is okay for someone to say that I am possessed by an evil spirit and I am just supposed to be nice about it because “Iz just a poor ‘ole homosexual and I should know my place and I should know better than to talk crazy to my heterosexual superiors.”

  • http://www.itsoftenbeensaid.wordpress.com Sasha

    Woowwwwww d-rhyme I think you might have just completely closed the door on this one. This RJ guy is really sad…

  • RJ


    How do you know this about gay people in other cultures? Where are your studies? and there have always been gay people in every culture who partner with people of the same sex. Secondly, I could very well marry a man. Would I be happy? No. All I would be doing is marrying to satisfy cultural “norms” and sacrificing my happiness. Why should I have to do that?

  • RJ


    “straw man argument”

    Tell me one thing that I have said that anyone here has said that has been refuted convincingly?

  • Ms. Information

    That’s the thing RJ..you are writing long diatribes attempting to convert us to your sentiment and it won’t work…I am not trying to make you believe what I think…even if gay marraige is approved, I still won’t believe in it.

  • Isis

    What L said

  • Yb

    No I’m not asking for to accept hate thrown at you and reply to it with a broken southern accent. I aslo acknowledge that as a heterosexual I have privileges that homosexuals don’t, but I also acknowledge intersectionality.

    What I want is for gay people pf color to acknowledge the blatant racism in the mainstream gay rights movement. I can support POC gays all day, everyday but not the mainstream gay rights movement (that also has a tendency of excluding transgenders and women as well as POC) nor POC Gay that deny and accept the racism that white gays throw at them. Why is it when I flip through gay magazines the only representation of a black man I see is in PSA for aids and HIV in the gay community?

  • Isis

    What L And Toppin said

  • RJ

    @Ms. Information…

    I have no interest in converting your beliefs. Believe whatever you want to. But, if you are going to debate about an issue, come at me with something that disproves what I am saying. All you guys do is either deflect, reestablish that it’s your opinion (duh), tell me that your opinion won’t change and none of you address ANY OF MY ACTUAL POINTS WITH ACTUAL FACTS AND INFORMATION.

    You and your I-don’t-believe-in-gay-marriage friends are the ones with the straw-man arguments.

  • Ms. Information

    If my debate is based on my BELIEFS then why argue with you? You don’t believe in God, you don’t recognize religion so why debate with someone who is Godless? You have no gauge of right and wrong based in any faith so do what you want to do!! You sound very frustrated – what do you want?

  • RJ


    What does racism in white gay community have to do with this discussion? You are DEFLECTING. It’s like having a discussion with white people about white racism and white people saying “well black people discriminate against other black people based on skin color”. Ok???? So?

    Stop acting like gay black folks don’t call racist gay people out on their bullshit too. We do. But again, what does that have to do with the fact that the Black community is MORE HOMOPHOBIC than any other race? And for a race that has experienced discrimination on all levels and a race that has so many moral dilemmas that are more pressing, we look stupid at least in the minds of thinking people. Call me crazy for believing that black people should be more open minded and accepting of gay people given our history.

  • jamesfrmphilly

    “I could give a flying hoot”

    hoot. hoot? hottie rootie toot, toot!

  • RJ

    @ Ms Information…

    Your handle should actually be Misinformation…Do you even know what my original comment was about?Let me refresh your memory…It was about the parallels between the black community and the gay community. That has nothing to do with beliefs. That has to do with history and I presented FACTS. What in the world are you talking about?

    And what in the world do you mean that because I am not religious, I don’t know right from wrong. I don’t lie. I don’t cheat. I don’t steal. I volunteer. I give ten percent of my salary to charity. I take care of those in need. I respect my elders. I don’t drink. I don’t smoke. I don’t party. I have no tattoos, lol. I am about as wholesome as you can get. Oh, but I’m gay and not religious, so I must be immoral.

  • S.


    Why do I care if you’re agnostic or not?
    How is that relevant to anything that I said?

    Go back and read my comments thoroughly before you decide to make an irrelevant rant

  • Ms. Terious

    Thank You!! but trying to get black church folk (as a collective) to see the bigger picture in regard to anything of this century is no small feat. this is what happens when the slave mentality carries on throughout generations. “just wait on jesus and all our problems will be solved.” newsflash: it’s not working! we need policy that will help reverse some of the damage that institutional racism has done to the “black community” and these people still think the bible is going to save them. this type of backwards/backwoods thinking hinders the progress of so many other aspects of black life, but let’s please continue to waste time worrying about things that have NO bearing on our personal lives whatsoever, like who someone else is f*cking.

  • Chica

    *sigh* I’ll try to make this short. Let me start by saying that of course the Gay Rights movement isn’t like the Black rights movement just like the black rights movement isn’t like the feminist movement and so on and so forth. All of the aforementioned movements had their own unique issues, internal issues/divisions, and nuances. HOWEVER, they all had ONE major thing in common: people asking for their civil rights. This whole Oppression Olympics mess seriously needs to stop. I was watching a news program the other day about Obama’s big announcement and one commentator said that this whole debate isn’t about gay rights; it’s about civil rights. As a black woman, it’s ok if someone doesn’t like me just because of the color of my skin. It’s ok if someone thinks that I should stay in the kitchen just because I’m a woman. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. An issue arises when those “opinions” affect the rights of others. It’s ok if folks disagree with gay marriage or the gay lifestyle because of their religion. But one’s religion should not infringe on someone else’s right, especially if those people don’t even subscribe to said religion. As a heterosexual, I fully support the rights of all consenting adults to get married. Am I out marching in the streets? No, not really. I devote all of my charitable efforts to children’s rights, but that’s another story. Anyway, I’ll say it once and I’ll say it again, if it doesn’t SERIOUSLY affect my MONEY or my SAFETY, then frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.

  • Ms. Terious


    you sound crazy/paranoid as hell. atheists taking over churches? bwahahahaha!!! YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. have a seat!

  • Ms. Information

    RJ, you sound hopeless…you are long winded and spout drivel in attempts to give us your “facts” Here are some more facts:

    Gay and bisexual men — referred to in CDC surveillance systems as men who have sex with men (MSM)

    Gay men continue to be the risk group most severely affected by HIV.

    CDC’s most recent data show that between 2006 and 2009, the number of new infections that occur each year increased among young MSM — driven by an alarming 48 percent increase among young, BLACK MSM 13 to 29 years old. These data clearly show the urgent need to expand access to proven
    HIV prevention programs for gay and bisexual men, and to develop new approaches to fight HIV in this population.

    MSM account for nearly half of the approximately 1.2 million people living with HIV in the United States (49%, or an estimated 580,000 total persons).

    MSM account for more than half of all new HIV infections in the United States each year (61%, or an estimated 29,300 infections).

    While CDC estimates that only 4 percent of men in the United States are MSM, the rate of new HIV diagnoses among MSM in the United States is more than 44 times that of other men (range: 522 –989 per 100,000 MSM vs. 12 per
    100,000 other men).

    Here are some facts..what say you?

  • RJ

    @ Ms. Information….


    Here are some other facts for you.

    Heterosexuals account for over 80 percent of HIV infections worldwide. In Sub-Saharan Africa, 1 in 5 heterosexual men and women are at risk for contracting HIV.

    What say you? But, again, what the hell does this have to do with my original post?

  • Ms. Information

    R Gay

    The Black vs Gay argument is null and void to me….my skin color precedes me, before I open my mouth, before I tell you who I choose to sleep with you know the color of my skin and my race…I will never respect the assumed parallels between Black people and gay people..never, period, coma, period, never, ever, period, coma, never. :)

  • Rastaman

    I am going to have to side with the gay folks in this here debate primarily because they have had a much cleaner historical slate than the super Christians. At this point in our existence, gay folks are not attempting to force me or anyone else to live like they do as I understand it they are just asking for the same rights entitled to every other adult in this society. Last time I checked, Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is entitled to every citizen of this nation. Even through my 12 years of Catholic school, I was never able accept the “Bible says so …” as the reason to do or not do something because even at the earliest age I reasoned that we required more logic in order to justify behavior.

    Leviticus in the Old Testament is where much of early christians views on sex were formed and as I recall there are brief mentions in New Testament Romans 1:26–27, 1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and 1 Timothy 1:9–10 that reference homosexual behavior. But even if we go with the Biblical prohibition outlined in 1 Timothy 1:9–10, homosexuality is seemingly placed on the same level as:”…for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine”

    It is funny then for me that confessed liars, murderers, fornicators and adulterers are then accepted and tolerated within these churches but homosexuals are somehow the worst of the worse. I don’t recall any hierarchy of sin but I am sure one of the “holier than thous”will try to interpret one from their own readings.

    But to save them all some time and effort, please understand this exercise is more for you and not for me as the Bible holds no sway over my belief system but as someone who has actually read it and more importantly studied it, I am hoping to help you better understand rather than parrot what someone else told you it said.

  • Ms. Terious


    please stop trying to make these people understand something that is clearly over their heads. no sense in kicking at a dead dog and it’s obvious that these dogs in this comment section are d-e-a-d. whenever you ask a simple question like, “how does my being gay affect your life?” you will hear nothing but crickets. now to us, regardless of what one’s religious beliefs, this all boils down to one fundamental idea: MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS. it’s that simple. no need to grab a bible or a koran or the bhagavad gita for that. just live your life the way you want to live yours and i’ll live mine the way i want to live mine. but for the holy ones, that’s too simple. not enough suffering invloved and you know in order for god’s love to truly be felt, someone must suffer. if the sanctified don’t have anyone to kick around then their halos don’t shine as bright. of course it’s never occurred to any of them that perhaps this is THEIR test to see how tolerant and “jesus like” they can be because it’s not like one of the tenets of christianity is to NOT judge others. no, this is, of course, about your fate in the pits of hell for having the audacity to exist. and if you kill yourself, you’ll also burn in hell for that, too. oops. thought you had a way out? the point of all my snark is that once people claim ignorance in the name of god there is nothing you can do about that. there are people in the middle east putting explosive devices in their intestines in the name of allah, for crying out loud. once you throw “well god said…” into the equation, you automatically lose. you can’t trump that with crazy talk about civil rights, justice for all, right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. god wants us all to be miserable and uptight and beating each other up in His honor over shit we can’t control, like how he created us. don’t bother, child. just pray on it.

  • RJ

    @Ms. Information…

    Oh lawd…ok, hear me out for one second.

    Gay and black people experience the world differently. Black people have physical characteristics that are obvious and make it easier to discriminate against them. Gay people have characteristics that are less obvious and manifest themselves behaviorally. Both groups experience discrimination and there are similarities in the way both groups are discriminated against. Who is discriminated against more? I can’t say. I won’t argue it because I can’t prove it. But I will say that I face more discrimination for being gay. That’s my experience and the experience of a lot of other gay people of color.

    Think about this: I don’t necessarily know if someone is Jewish or not by looking at them, but Jewish people still experience a lot of bigotry.

  • iQgraphics

    thanks for the shout out Mami!

    I think the whole issue lives on Hipocracy Boulevard.
    To restrict two individuals of sound mind and body from entering into a civil contract with one another citing a dogmatic book that would disallow 57% of the population the right to choose… well ANYTHING is ridiculous.

    By 57% I’m referring to women. The bible…. ehhhh… it ain’t really on our side.

    And no! the black issue and the gay issue are not one in the same.

  • Ms. Information

    Gay people do not deserve to get beaten, hurt, hung or anything violent because of the choices that they make…(from my perspective) God loves mankind equally and I believe that only he can judge what is in our hearts…that being said, I disagree with gay marriage, it is really not that serious I promise. As an institution, I agree with marriage between man and wife…and I actually beleive that civil unions are fine under the law.

  • http://akwardturtlejourney.blogspot.com/ Realityplease

    Thank you!!!!! I’m so sick and tired of people heading straight to Black church folk in situations like these, especially when there are so many groups and divisions with opinions on the issue. There are black non believers who do not agree with Obama’s stance, there are white non believers who do not agree with Obama’s stance, there are Black believers who do and do not agree with his stance and so on… People need to give Believers (specifically black) more credit instead of bunching them together as empty minded zombies with no freedom of thought. I agree that Politics should indeed be kept separate from Religious thoughts if people are not capable of separating the two when necessary in order to work for the good of the country but I guess that is easier said than done with topics like this. I however always wonder why EVERYTHING is compared to black civil rights, It’s like people feel that in order to make a point or discuss an issue, referring back to THAT particular struggle is necessary and highlighting the black population of the that particular issue (in this case the LGBT community) is neccessary… yes I know that Black rights are a key event in our history, it is powerful and holds many lessons and is very evidently still a raw subject but I can’t help but feel as though, such a comparison sometime wear out our history and is used with the intention of evoking a reaction based on a painful past… and that’s on both sides of the argument. Just for once can a topic which actually has nothing to do with colour (unless our sexual orientation is now based on our ethnicity) be discussed and dealt with in it’s own lane?

  • http://themodernmedicineman d-rhyme

    @RJ and Ms. Tedious. Over our heads? Please read facts on Hermaphrodites. If you have to have surgery just to pee or to take hormones to get pregnant, that is a disease by any definition. Where are your facts? No word for gay in the Cherokee language. Ranting and raving not only does not prove your point it actually makes it invalid. Fact homosexuality was once considered mental illness. Prince is living proof that feminine men are attracted to women. If you ever had an erection for a woman you were not born that way. Strike one, two and three on you. You’re out.

  • RJ


    My point about hermaphrodites is that they are people who “God” created who represent biological diversity. Human beings are not a monolith. Some of us are brown, some of us are white, some of us are straight, some of us are gay, some of us are male, some of us are female, and some of us are both. That’s my point.

    Fact, black people were once considered 3/5 human by our constitution? Fact, people who were left-handed were once considered to be possessed by the devil. Fact, women used to be considered the property of their husbands. What’s your point?

    And what does Prince have to do with this discussion. Femininity and masculinity have NOTHING to do with sexuality. There are very masculine gay men and very feminine gay women. So what does that contribute to the convo?

    *I’m bored, hence why I am responding to all of this nonsense.

  • http://themodernmedicineman d-rhyme

    Wrong does not justify wrong. Not rocket science. Who needs Leviticus or Bible to
    argue? Common sense is more than adequate. If you have a penis and don’t know what it was intended for? You are delusional. You are arrogant and playing God if you want to make a world out of your delusions. DELUSION AND GRANDIOSITY are in full effect and are the prime features of psychotic persons. End of argument.

  • RJ


    Men’s penises don’t belong in women’s mouths…
    A man’s tongue doesn’t belong on a woman’s clitoris…
    We must outlaw oral sex! It’s unnatural! And anyone who has oral sex is delusional and psychotic.

  • Ms. Terious

    FACT: people think their silly superstitions are fact.

    *see RJ’s examples

    good day.

  • S.

    You know what, Jessica


  • http://themodernmedicineman d-rhyme

    You just described heterosexual activities. Man and woman agrees with my view. So you concede then.

  • Ms. Terious

    “You are arrogant and playing God if you want to make a world out of your delusions.” ~d-rhyme

    um, that’s what I call western religion.

    by the way, please stop. you’re not helping your cause. lol!

  • Rastaman

    @ d-rhyme
    No argument because I was always told to never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

    Too bad, I was hoping for a reasoned response and instead I got the thoughtless rantings of a person obsessed with where other people choose to place their penis. I am frankly only concerned with where I place my penis. As for playing God, I have no such desire all my concerns are earthly if you are concerned about God why so incensed by others earthly concerns and not your own eternal fate. Plus i would rather be called arrogant than chose to wallow in ignorance.

    “An open mind leaves a chance for someone to drop a worthwhile thought in it”

  • RJ

    Then you need to revise your position. You said, “If you have a penis and don’t know what it was intended for? You are delusional.” Uhmmm…last time I checked a man’s penis was not intended for oral copulation. If that’s the case then you need to be very specific about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable sex. Because if your premise is that men and women should only participate in sexual acts that our sexual organs were “intended for” then you would be restricting a lot of the sexual activities that both heterosexuals and homosexuals participate in. No oral sex. No anal sex. No use of sexual toys…etc. etc.

  • http://themodernmedicineman d-rhyme

    You said your happiness is your concern not society. That is the definition of anti social personality disorder. Predators live outside society also. Growth or evolution even marriage means self sacrifice for a greator good. TEAMWORK or maturity also. Growth is life. ARE you saying gays are immature and spoiled and only want what is important to them?

  • Ms. Terious

    wow, you’re way too far gone. i am officially declaring you a troll, as i refuse to believe you’re serious at this point.

  • Humanista

    Absolutely, this.

  • http://themodernmedicineman d-rhyme

    Sure Ms Tedious. Whatever you say. Calling names wont make you brighter. Dimmer
    Is more like it. A hater. I love it. Lets see you solve the mysteries of the universe.

  • BFDuster

    Hey d-rhyme, I think you forgot to say “trololololo” right? There’s no way you’re being serious right? :P

  • BFDuster

    “I think part the responsibility for these men falls squarely on the shoulders of their mothers”

    I can now imagine princess Leia as a young Black woman chained to a big fat Black man.

  • Tricia

    The long and short of the story is that after all has been said and done, we too, have a right Not to agree with Obama. No matter what we will still vote based on Our own beliefs, value systems, and dare I say it religious persuasion. No matter if you call us hypocrites, close minded, what ever name, Wrong is still wrong. If the church aligned themselves with Obama in 2008 and they no longer do that, it is Their right to change their mind in 2012. Its the same right that the gays are fighting for, Right? Additionally, I find it amazing that in previous posts the point was made that the civil rights issues in the 1960s no way corelate to the fight that the LGBT community is having. Yet in this post, this writer seems to want to do that, very interesting!!

  • entro

    Thank you
    I’m not a part of any organized religion but I am a follower of Jesus Christ and I will still vote for obama.Christ NEVER tried to push himself on anyone nor did he try to change the government he tried to change peoples hearts. The so called black church and white church are failing miserably at this and are setting a terrible precedent for religion and government intertwining. What happens when the government tells you what and who to believe? Its not about what would Jesus Do? But what did Jesus do? These so called Christians that choose to hate, are failing .

  • Shirl

    RJ: you have, in all of your posts, so eloquently stated everything that I have been thinking. I have friends and family that are gay and I love them dearly. May you be forever blessed.

  • ChurchVsState

    There is a separation of church and state. The founding fathers made it that way for a reason. Marriage for gay people is a big subject b/c Christians think it should be between a man and a woman, but if you look at it as a legal contract, it is not something that the state should be denying based on the church. So it is all about what you believe.

    I just find it hypocritical how Christians pick and choose what parts of the bible are important. I think illegitimate children and premarital sex are a no, no in the bible, but it has become acceptable to many Christians. Bristol Palin popped out a baby out of wedlock, but somehow she thinks that her opinions on morality are important.

  • Pema

    Really? In your experience have you found black people to be more homophobic than latinos, asians, arabs or basically any other race aside from Europeans?

  • http://themodernmedicineman d-rhyme

    My founding ffathers were Geronimo. Sitting Bull. Tecumseh and others. Your founding fathers were murderers and genocidalists. Slave owners. Who is model for separation of church and state? Henry VIII. A serial killer . The stat e is m an made.. Tribe is God made.

  • http://themodernmedicineman d-rhyme

    Your respect for non white culture is pitiful.

  • diana

    Hey everyone!There is a HOT new dating place(blackwhiteplanet.c~***0***~m).I just wanted to let everyone know about.Right now it’s the best on the internet,because u can sign up for free and it has more features than any other site without doubt and hard to use.U also can answer questions to your favorite and best partner,send messages,and instantly chat with people.I signed up yesterday and will be going on my first date today.Wish me luck!Oh,I almost forgot,the site is ===blackwhiteplanet.c~0~m =====

  • Mia

    @ Ms. Information & Sasha

    Here’s the thing, it doesn’t matter if you don’t support same sex marriage. That’s your personal decision, and I’m not interested in trying to make you change how you feel. The problem is that in this country homosexuals should have the same rights as their heterosexual counterparts. In this case, that means that gays should be allowed to legally solidify their unions in a marriage. Making gay marriage legal won’t change a thing for you, or for people who think like you. Your church won’t have to marry same sex couples, and they can continue to preach anti-homosexual doctrine. You can continue to believe that gay marriage is wrong. That’s perfectly fine. What will change is that gay people would be able to go to city hall, get a marriage certificate, and then have all the legal rights that come with it. They would also be able to have a wedding instead of a commitment ceremony at churches that support their unions. That doesn’t hurt anyone. Even if it did, it wouldn’t matter because it is illegal to discriminate in gays in that way. Like you, I will not be marching in a LGBT equal rights parade. I just have other issues that are more important to me. However, I will not agree that it is okay to tell one segment of our society that they are less than, and unworthy of equal rights.

  • binks


  • L


    EVERYTHING you said.

    Whats funny and fascinating to me is the way Black women avoid the question of how they are treated and thought of by so many Black men. They avoid and ignore the points you and so many others raise, yet they have endless comments on being excluded from some tv show and they have tumblers yet again talking about how much they love Black men. Why the avoidance?

    *Soul On Ice*- Its funny but a few short years ago, when still a teen, I got the book from an adult family friend. I heard about the book and read reviews and yeah I was still shocked about Cleaver(author) making the statement about practicing and perfecting rape on Black women until he moved on to his ultimate target -White women. Again, mostly silence from everyone, including the so called Black religious leaders. Now, Cleaver wasnt the first Black man to write of his hate and contempt for Black women; What about Chester Himes(his hate was palpable), Richard Wright, even James Baldwin and others. Silence from everyone, but Alice Walker and other Black women writers and feminists were practically crucified and they never engaged in the vitriolic hate against Black men that some Black men practiced against Black women. Again, to me, the fascinating thing about all of this was the behavior of Black women- the silence, excuses, and ass kissing they continued to display towards Black men. Very interesting!

    As for gay Black women forming relationships with each other…Are most really gay or are they too afraid and insecure to do what is so simple-opening up their options?.
    Being a Black American woman and being around Blacks and the Black community seems to make Black womens self esteem lower- in spite of their talk about being proud of their race and features. Low self esteem???? must be the biggest reason you still have so many Black women talking about how much they love a group of men, who in words and deeds make their feelings clear about how they feel about you.

    Fall back, NBABM*(nothing but a black man*-curiously, I have never heard nothing but a Black woman from Black men), women, Im not hating on anyone, just interested in how Black women think and how they respond or dont to this topic.

  • ed

    The rapper, Jay-Z, just “endorsed” President Obama ‘s recent endorsement of same-sex marriage. Some people are amazed that a rapper could be that “open minded”.

  • Mr Jay

    Well I’m in the mood for more wisdom of how my church upbringing that fostered me never being arrested and being a good citizen and getting a good education has done so much harm to the community because glaad and the negroatti say so. Maybe we can squeeze in a class on that around feeding the homeless and day care and elder-assistance and after school programs and alcohol and drug abuse counseling and tutoring programs we run.

  • I got sense!


    Don’t waste your time. Using a phrase they will surely understand, “cast not ur pearls before swine”. You have very clearly made your point. It’s funny when people use the bible as justification for their bigotry when MAN not God wrote the bible. It’s also funny that the bible doesn’t explicitly say anything about God or Jesus disapproving of same sex marriage. It’s also funny that these same people choose which parts of the bible they follow. Same sex marriage will be recognized nationwide sooner or later. The people who don’t like will just be salty.

    “I’m not sure exactly where Obama’s support in the black community will land after the dust settles; but for me, I will take equality over religious hypocrisy every day of the week and twice on Sunday – and let the chips fall where they may.”

    100000000% agree with ^^^^^

  • b-reason

    A. There are heterosexual couples who need medical assistance to conceive. Are they diseased and should they be relegated to 2nd class citizenship?

    B. Intersex peoples are born to their bodies the way you were born to yours, without any choice involved. What does that have to with the debate about civil rights for all people?

    C. “The Cherokee had no word for homosexuality” I would like to see your evidence for this claim. Even if it is true, it’s probably because they didn’t care one way or the other. Attitudes towards same-sex attraction vary from culture to culture throughout history, ranging from full on acceptance to tolerance to suppression. What is your point? P.S. check out two-spirit identity.

    D. Homosexuality was once considered a mental illness. Fact, it is no longer considered a metal illness because trained health professionals with greater authority than you or I on the subject found that the behavior is no longer consistent with the definition a mental illness. Go check out the American Psychological Association’s website for further reading.

    E. The “what is natural” argument amuses me. What else is natural about our lives? Was you foot designed to go in a shoe, is you body designed to go in a car? Is tuna designed to come in can? Whatever dude. Furthermore homosexual behavior has been observed in hundreds of vertebrate species, so clearly it is natural.

    F. Yes, your gender presentation is not your sexuality. Thank you for pointing that out. Many people are unclear about it.

    G. Marriage is an economic contract that guarantees the persons involved with certain rights and privileges, which is why all consenting adults should have access to it, provided it’s with another consenting adult.

    H. Being married is not synonymous with leading a virtuous life, conversely leading a virtuous life does not necessitate being married.

    I. Being a good citizen/member of a community does not mean giving up your rights or giving in to societal attitudes against an arbitrary behavior. It means standing up for the rights of all peoples who are oppressed to guarantee safety and liberty for all.

  • The Comment

    @ S.

    You are a perfect example of why Black people and the bibile don’t mix. The bible is a book of knowledge yet you are still ignorant.

  • Grant

    The gist of the argument is thus: Why would the black church, an organization that has in the past and continues now to fight for equality, inject itself into a position of favoring inequality? Look at who the church is allied with, the same White dominated hierarchical church that has been fighting us tooth and nail even now. The White Church is the one that demonizes Obama and calls him the anti-christ, the white church wanted to fight for segregation, the white church fought to uphold slavery. While the word is the word, that should not have any bearing on public law. Marriage is now a public institution, it was only linked to the church, the church doesn’t monopolize it. We as the black church may not pick up arms for the LGBT community, but we certainly should not fight against them. It reminds me of the fable of the scorpion and the frog, the white church is the scorpion piggy-backing on us to maintain inequality in America, as soon as they are done, they’re gonna sting us in the back, why would now be any different than before? While the mainstream media has been overly happy to point out the black christian opposition to gay marriage, it has done so with some reason. Why would a constantly maligned and oppressed segment of the population malign and oppress another segment? In the eyes of the government all law-abiding citizens should be seen as equal. Everyone must have their reckoning with God, why are we trying to judge others for him? Is it our job to over-reach? When I see my community in line with Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan, Liberty University, and other conservative gutter-dwelling neo-confederates, I cringe. They will be back calling us unfit parents, apes, crackheads, criminals, degenerates and the like as soon as they get a chance. Why not pick up an ally? Why be a part of the oppressive structure that we so heartily detest?

  • R

    Homosexuals, and other fair and just people:

    I hope you all fight these so called religious people, Black or White,tooth and nail, without apology.

    Do not stand by quietly while they try to demonize and dehumanize you all with their selective morality.

    I wish Black women had done the same to these Black male c-rappers and hiphoppers.

  • phonecian

    Though I do respect the logical approach of the author of the article, I cannot say that I agree with the assertion that:

    “Simply put, equality for the LGBT community is a step forward for African-Americans because many in the LBGT community are African-American. ”

    Yes, a large portion of the LGBT community is composed of African-Americans, but to establish such a linkage between the acquisition of rights for the former and the further enfranchisement of the latter is simply unrealistic. One’s sexual preference does not have to be expressed in a physical, observable manner; it is a personal choice. A flamboyant hetero-sexual, ie “I get hoes”, is just as abrasive as a flamboyant homosexual in my opinion. However, one’s ethnicity and/ or race is an easily identified physical trait, and therefore much more susceptible to discrimination. The marriage rights, or lack thereof, of the non-heterosexual community will have little effect on the historical plight of the African American. Young black men will still be underrepresented in the professional arena, regardless of their personal predilections. Young black women will continually be stereotyped and marginalized, and the choice of whom they lie with will have no bearing on this reality.

    As a Christian, I support equal rights and acceptance for all that do not jeopardize the rights and dignity of others. As a historian, I must address the fact that since the rise of European colonialism and African enslavement, the American experience has displayed rampant and destructive discriminatory behavior towards multiple groups due to their place or people of origin. Such a widespread phenomena can not be translated to the LGBT community, neither in longevity or depth. The plight of the LGBT community is an unfortunate symptom of the lack of social solidarity and acceptance in this nation, but to compare this symptom to the systematic and culturally ingrained repression of African-Americans is a false comparison.

  • http://designsdelight.com art nouveua

    I told you Obama had an antichrist instincts, he and his molders men like Jeremiah worng but Wright.

    Why is the gay agenda being pushed so hard? I would like property rights to be pushed as hard, the fourth amendment to be pushed so hard.

    Let us remember what these crazy homoseuals and Knight Templars are asking us, They say that a man can marry a man, well since when?

    Never has this ever been considered the truth.

    As for this article, it shows you what happens when you lose your mind to political correctness.

    in 1307 when the Pope and Phillip La Bel outlawed the Knight Templars , they acussed them or worshipping Baphomet and practising sodomy.

    Obama is working for the Illuminated Ones, all he has been concerned about is who is not paying income taxes.

    Income taxes were zero in1913, because there was No Federal reserve. But since the Templars have had their bank they have robbed Americans.

    Were the Knights Templars slave owners? How come black people had Scottish surnames?

    We all know that these Scotish templars used to rape women, but what about male slaves?

    Since black people have sold their soul to the Democrats they have to go along with every Olympian Idea going, even supporting sodomy.

    I am glad Obama has messed this one up. Because he is as fake as they come , he has too many white ideas, like he did not grow amongst black people.

    Please do not blackmail black people. because gays are the most protected group going, I wish someone could stand up for us like they are being stood up for.

  • Ok, Obama

    LGBT’s simply want others (esp. Christians) to co-sign 100% with what they do behind closed doors to make themselves feel better.

  • Chica

    No. LGBTs simply want the same civil rights afforded to heterosexual Americans. Don’t get it twisted.

  • http://www.facebook.com/EnriquesX Anita Volpato

    I agree with you!! Grant 100% :)

  • haffie

    Once again who cares about homos, Obama is wrong on the issue. It’s wrong and wrong. My bible says its wrong so I say its wrong. Point blank. Those who say otherwise will pay the consequences of their actions.men and women= kids not the other way around. marriage between a man and a woman iis God’s way of life…

  • Frankie 5

    My thing is this. Why are people who claim their so pro black support the madness of homosexuality in the black community. Homosexuality by its very definition means a cessation of life. Man on man and woman on woman relationships do nothing to reproduce life. It ceases it. Homosexuality is nothing more than a sick mental and sexual disorder akin to pedophilia. You can not sit here and say you want to support the black community by supporting something thats demonic and unholy, same as heterosexual couples having sex before marriage or having kids aout of wedlock. If you support one sin you might as well support the drug dealing, murder of black children, and other ills in the community. Sin is sin and people are delusional if they believe that supporting one is harmless. Dont support the proliferation of the black community while simaltaneously supporting its destruction.

  • BFDuster

    -Homosexuality is NOT pedophillia, it is the attraction to the same sex

    -Homosexuality is not mental sickness or disorder–studies support this

    -Heterosexuals are not perfect faultless angels

    -Homosexuals, if not having surrogates, often pick up the slack in adopting kids heterosexuals did not want

    -Black women are not your personal broodmares

    -The Black community can be supported in many ways that don’t involve Black women giving up their freedom, rights and bodily autonomy

    -Supporting two consenting ADULTS in their relationship and legal benefits they are entitled to is NOT the same as supporting drug dealing, child murder or any other social ills in society

    -Not everyone is religious; of those that are, not all believe in pushing their religion of choice onto others and making them beyond miserable for not participating

    -Not everyone believes in a god or your god; of those that do, not all of them believe god is a figure head for the douchebag power dynamics such as heterosexual superiority

    -Not everyone has the same concept of evil and unholy; of those that don’t, they are more than willing to define your beliefs as evil and unholy

    Hate and ignorance are mental illnesses.

  • NB

    The US is a secular state and has a deep founded history in separation of State and Church. As a Christian, I struggle personally because I believe love is love but I accept that it’s not everything that we want to do that God sanctions. Nonetheless, I have often argued with my friends over whether or not people of the same sex should get married. I believe that they should be able to (over here in England we have civil unions, I think you lot have it too) Why the hell not? What does the church have to do with what the state recognises? You may not like it but from a secular stand point, I have no issues with it. Marriage in a church is a separate argument I’m not in the mood to get into atm. Bottom line, gay people should be able to get married by the state. Being Black IMO is irrelevant. What does being black have to do with anything?

  • http://blog.classyblacklady.com Tabby

    @Mia I think you hit the nail on the head. nuff said

  • dreameagle

    i’m sorry, but your PC plight rightfully falls on deaf ears;

    homosexuals do not have a right to marry like my wife and i;

    everyone gets married either in a church or in some setting under the eyes and/or auspices of God, declares their plight to each other under these conditions, and is pronounced married under these conditions;

    i’ve yet to hear of one religious scripture that declares a marraige other than between a man and woman under the eyes of God;

    and please don’t cry on about how homosexual discrimination is the same as racial discrimination–the latter is based upon inherited traits, while the former is a choice;

    homosexuals can stop being homosexuals if they so choose–Chines cannot stop being Chinese, Africans cannot stop being African and the same holds true for African-Americans;

    repugnant and sinful as i may find that kind of lifestyle personally, that doesn’t mean i would seek to deny their basic human rights, nor would i advocate or support others doing so;

    but as to their “marrying”, sorry, that is a “no-go” in the eyes of God i cannot and will not accept or support, which is exactly the position of not only the majority of the African-American community, but the population in general, as well;

  • OT

    100% agree!

  • Trey

    And if that is your belief then that’s fine, President Obama is trying to change what you believe. But, your bible’s Marriage guidelines have no place in granting legal rights and advantages. We should change our law to require Civil unions (instead of “marriage”) for every person who wants the legal benefits associated with marriage laws today. If you decide to “Marry” then that is something that will be between you, your spouse, your God and your CHURCH. But the tax breaks and rights associated with current “Marriage” should not be denied to people because of who they decide to have a union with.
    Also, If God is going to judge homosexuals then let him, but it is not the government’s place to force this judgement. Do you not have faith that your God will take care of these situations as he sees fit? Remember: Love AND treat your neighbor like yourself (i.e. don’t deny important rights to your neighbor)

  • Trey

    “You can not…say you want to support the black community by supporting something thats …unholy”

    Why are you equating support of the black community with support of religion? << Not a rhetorical question
    In my opinion being a part of the black community DOES NOT automatically mean that 1. you are automatically a member of the black church and 2. That you ascribe to beliefs of what is holy and what is not. (

    Side note: casting judgement is a sin as well, so is not treating your neighbor as yourself…

  • Trey

    Hence why marriage should ONLY take place in the Church, NOT a courtroom. Thats the only way to keep peoples rights from being infringed upon.

  • Trey

    And to clarify, if your church is ok with marrying same sex couples that is between that couple, God and that church. Many churches based in the word of God(s) marry same sex couples, and this should be of no concern to anyone but the couples involved.

  • Ms. Information


  • Kam

    So I guess by that logic we can’t support heterosexual people who are sterile either?

  • Kiya

    Homosexuality is NOT a choice….

  • Trey

    *President Obama is NOT trying to change what you believe.

  • http://dotnetslackers.com/Community/members/thaddeuskris1127.aspx Jami Oconnor

    Hello there, You’ve done a fantastic job. I’ll certainly digg it and personally recommend to my friends. I am confident they’ll be benefited from this web site.

  • http://cookthisgetlaid.com Mo

    My husband and I don’t have children. Does that make our marriage any less valid?

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