Reconsider Submitting to Your Man

by Demetria L. Lucas

Last week, I wrote about a cartoon that idolizes Black women from yesteryear and craps on modern Black women. One of the uplifted qualities of the 70s woman was “knows that she has more power being submissive to her a man.”  Unsurprisingly, many commenters latched onto the idea of submission and rallied against it.

“Submission” has become some sort of weird buzzword. The second a guy—always a guy—throws it into a conversation as a desirable trait, you can bet good money that an argument is about to ensue. It’s an exasperating conversation that women go ape s#@! over. We hear men say it and most of us envision a man wanting a woman akin to Vanessa Bell Calloway’s character in “Coming to America”, the type of woman who answers every question with “whatever you like” and will hop on one foot while barking like a dog—a big dog, if necessary—to please her man. Just the idea of it is enough to make many of us black out as we tough type an enraged response. As much as we try to convince and cajole guys to an enlightened perspective, they rarely budge. Maybe men are just that pigheaded. Or maybe something’s getting lost in interpretation between the language of Venus and Mars.

I like to think that most men are not Neanderthals and there must be some confusion of what many men mean when they say they want a submissive woman. So I asked my Male Mind Squad (if you read A Belle in Brooklyn, you know they address an array of topics in the book), my go-to group of thinking men across the country, ranging from their mid-20s to mid 40s and who are either dateable or would be if they weren’t already committed or married (because that’s the only kind we really want to hear from on these topics.) I prayed their answers wouldn’t reveal that their mindsets were from the Stone Ages.

The Good:

There’s hope. Most of the respondents didn’t expect a woman to submit, or even think she should. They even added some sort of disclaimer to their answers like, “I don’t believe in submission”.

“Submissive women” is an outdated idea from Biblical times,” said one guy. “The notion of a woman’s submission is the same as people believing a woman should wear a head covering or walk 10 steps behind a man. It makes no sense in this modern time and probably never did.”

In so many words, many men said what they wanted was a mutual submission, of sorts, or better, “compromise“. One guy summed it up nicely with: “I want her to be assertive and speak her mind. I do want a partner. I want her to lead in the areas where she is stronger than I…and I want her to do the same where I am stronger.”

Another added, “I don’t want a submissive woman, but I do like women that are confident enough to not always have to assert their independence. ‘Let go’ of perceived power sometimes and let me take on the stereotypical role.”

The Not So Bad:

When a guy says submit, what he’s really saying is—if I can be a Man Whisperer for a moment—he wants you to listen to him (which does NOT mean obey), he doesn’t want a lot of conflict in the relationship, he wants to know that you trust him (his judgment and to provide security) and he wants to at the very least feel like his needs/desires/input matter to you.  I wish they would just say that instead of “submit”, but anyway…

“Some women have too much to say all the damn time and refuse to just listen,” said one man. “Having a perspective and opinion is great but when you’re a control freak and your way is the only way, it will drive that man away… give him at least the illusion that he has some say in the relationship, otherwise he will check out mentally.”

Another explained, “We all want a woman that’s not going to create or feed into conflict based situations. Men are as sensitive and emotional as women, we just mask it in different ways. We ultimately desire partners who make it easier to hide that vulnerability.”

And one just made it simple: “Every once in a while, I just want her to do something she doesn’t want to do, but will do it anyway to make me happy as long as it’s a reasonable request. No man wants to know before he asks that the answer is going to be ‘no’”

The (Sorta) Ugly:

Some guys—and they were in the minority of the group who responded—think they are better at decision making solely by “virtue” of being born men. “Not to sound ancient,” one man began, all but letting me know he was about to say something wild. “But men are normally more logical when it comes to making decisions (versus  being emotional).”

Um… Ok.

Another guy added, “Male genome dictates we take charge. When sh** goes left, it seems men are better equipped to handle the fallout. How many times have you seen a woman get emotional when the s*** hits the fan? Most men just roll up their sleeves. Women, they cry. This is a gross generalization, but it has merit…. Can’t fight Darwin and evolution.”

Others believed strongly in the “natural order” of a hierarchy between man and woman and rigidly defined roles. “ I like a woman who not only accepts her role in the natural order of family and community––nurturer and builder of child and man––but swims in it, needs to succeed in it. She needs her man to feel successful in his natural role as provider and security (physical, emotional; many times financially), so facilitation is a part of her role’s duty.”

To his credit, he added, “The relationship should be reciprocal FYI. So it’s not about a man wanting a woman who is submissive as in weaker to his strength, but strong in her commitment and surrender to her role as his everything.”

And for some others—even the so-called enlightened ones—they wanted the ability to pull rank.  “I want to hear her point of view and opinion,” said one. “But I want my word to be the last word. Kind of like the President of a company does with his VP’s. There can only be one chief.”

~

Demetria L. Lucas the author of A Belle in Brooklyn: The Go-to Girl for Advice on Living Your Best Single Life. ABIB is available to download and now in paperback. Follow her on Twitter at @abelleinbk

  • http://changecomesslow.wordpress.com Nikesha

    Every couple must define what submission will mean in their relationship and by submit I mean compromise. I personally have no problem with the role of being nurturer to my husband but I also know he is doing the most when it comes to providing.

    Not every couple will assume such a role nor should they if it doesn’t work for them.

    At the end of the day it’s about give and take throwing submission into the conversation mix muddies the conversation like always focusing on why some folks stay single. It’s irrelevant.

  • theresa

    I love this article. I think a lot of women are uncomfortable with the word submission because it involves yielding and humbling yourself. Historically women have equated that with a loss of “power” in a relationship. I dont agree with that. I believe every relationship involves balance, and that balance involves occasionally giving in to your partner.

    I think there is something to be said about a woman who is trusting enough to feel comfortable submitting to her man. To me this signifies her support of his judgement and complete trust that the decisions he makes are made with her best interest in mind. As I said earlier, I think the key in a healthy relationship is balancing your needs with the needs of your partner. Instead of always tippping the scale in your direction, submission is just occasionally allowing the scale to tip toward your partner.

  • http://itsoftenbeensaid.wordpress.com Sasha A.

    Why is this an issue? Either submit or don’t according to whatever definition of the word you choose to go by.

  • African Mami

    Submission is an antiquated ideal that needs to be down away with. You do your part, and I’ll do mine. Lets meet each other halfway.

  • http://magistersthinktank2.blogspot.com The Magister Veritatis

    For whatever reason black women and the idea of submission do not mesh well together. I’ve always found it interesting that other races of women have little trouble submitting to their men but African American women always go against the grain. Now I’ll admit their are a few reasons why sisters as a whole may not want to submit (i.e. brothers “allegedly” playing games) but to argue this is the main reason why sisters refuse is far fetched. I think of all us can admit a very large segment of black women in America have been taught not to trust black men and that plays a very large role in why sisters refuse to submit. I can’t mention the number of times I’ve encountered online videos of sisters complaining about black men and saying we aren’t worth crap. The funny thing is some of these women are in their early twenties. It is beyond obvious that these young ladies have been indoctrinated into black woman “think” and taught that no matter what black men are unreliable and shady. They also speak of how they will never submit to any man because that is too much power to give away. Yet, these are the same women who say they want to one day get married. But little do this sisters understand that without submission a marriage will not last. Because it is not about whether your husband makes all the decisions and tells you what to do. No, it’s about if you have enough trust in him to make those decisions and follow his lead.

  • D.T.

    I think one of the problems is that many people equate submission to a dictatorship. Submission is about respect. Respecting one’s role as leader and headship in the home. That doesn’t mean a woman has no rights in the relationship or is unable to make decisions.Some women (such as myself) have no problem submitting to their husbands (in my case future husband). The key though is being with the right man to submit to. Not every man (just because he has male male organs) is declared a leader. There are certain traits that man must possess.

    What I don’t understand with a lot of women that are so against submission is that they scream for equality when it’s convenient for them. A lot of women want equality but then complain when a man doesn’t “take charge” or step up and “be a man”. To me, gender roles and submission are long distant relatives. I don’t have a problem with gender roles but as we know, gender roles are almost depleted in black society and thus submission is also.

    At the end of the day though, do what works in your relationship.

  • Ms. Information

    Sub (to come under) Mission (a plan and direction) – Submission to me only means to be a participant in a plan…many men don’t have plans for their lives let alone a wife..this is why submission is a hard take for some women…

  • Yb

    “interesting that other races of women have little trouble submitting to their men”

    *Record scrrrrrrraaaatttccchhhh*

    I’m just going to jump to a conclusion that you don’t associate with people of other races that much. Black women weren’t the face of the femenist movement and various parts of Africa was not the only place to be matriarchy. Let’s stop with these generalizations rooted in racial misconceptions.

  • African Mami

    Submission and compromise are two VERY left ideas, independent of each other. When you compromise with your partner, there is mutual agreement. Submission is NOT an agreement it is an acknowledgment that one party is more superior than the other. With that in mind, I reject submission!

  • grateful

    hie sweets!

    interesting to see a woman from the motherland rejecting submission, lol!

    hope you are well.

  • African Mami

    Hola chica!!

    That’s a very interesting take. Never ever heard of it. By your definition, you are a participant in a plan-hmmmm! BUT in most cases, submission involves a theme of dominance and servitude.
    That is why I find submission a hard take. I’ve had the fortune of meeting many a great man with plans, but whose plans (some, not all )are vested in dominance.He has the last word. My participant role is not significant enough to warrant serious decision making. Then again, it could be attributed to culture, but I digress.

  • African Mami

    Hey girrrl!!

    I’m well dear, and hope you are the same too!

    I reject it in the mighty name of the Lamb, I cast, bind it and send it from whence it came from!-hell.

  • African Mami

    You think the white feminist movement, and the continuance of it, happens to be that they are very submissive proponent?! Please!

  • sharay

    Please. I’d happily submit to a man. if I could find one that could take care of business the way it needed to be done. Half of these dudes out here don’t really want/know how to take care and run a household-how to be the man in charge. Just like ideals of womanhood have changed,ideas of manhood have changed as well. I was talking to my father about this actually. He’s married to his 3rd wife(latina) and he’s all I wouldn’t date another black woman again because they emasculate and always argue. Never let the man lead or whatever. Now, that may be true in some circumstances but I also told him where some women are coming from. If our(black men) would prove themselves on the WHOLE to be the head dudes in charge and actually taking care of business there would be no need for us to always have to shoulder everything and be all independent woman on their arses. He couldn’t do anything but agree with me on that point.

  • Lady P

    Submission requires one to have trust in each other. If love and respect is present; it is second nature and is mutual. Also, marriage is not just a spiritual bond, but a partnership as well. With saying that, I do believe some level of being submissive is required.

  • Nix

    As a college girl who’s hoping to get married someday, I just can’t understand why “submission” needs to be thrown into the conversation. What a lot of this is based on is fear and manipulation.”Because you don’t do xyz, that’s why black women are single” or “What you won’t do another woman will”. I would never want to be in a relationship with someone where I would have to fear that they would cheat or leave because I didn’t do every single thing they wanted or let them have the last say. And what’s ironic is that most women would probably be just fine with the “mutual submission” aka “compromising”. Relationships to me are based on love, respect, and trust. I love you so I’m going to want to nurturer you. I respect you so I’m not going to try to belittle you or emasculate you. I trust you so I’m going to give in to your ideas every now and then because I know that I’m not always right and I value your opinions. At the end of the day, relationships are supposed make people feel good.

    A relationship where one’s forced into “roles” breeds nothing but resentment and fear. As a black women, I already have to deal with all of society trying to marginalize and silence me on a day to day basis with all-encompassing sexism and racism. Why would I, after dealing with all of that, want to come home and again and be silenced yet again? At the end of the day we’re gonna be damned if we do or damned if we don’t because you can be the “perfect” 50s housewife type and still get left with a swiftness. And in today’s world you still can’t win even if your sole position is the “nurturer”. You can be in his corner, taking care of him and his kids, and when things go sour they can throw it in your face with the whole “Bitch you wasn’t shooting with me in the gym” mentality a la the Kobe divorce situation. So, I can take care of you, your kids, and deal with your shit, but I’m not “with” you unless I’m providing money? Okay, bye.

  • beks

    As a english major (taking it back tot he old school!), I think it is important to understand that you can’t “whitewash” what submission has meant historically for women. While in the best cases it meant that she found a man to “submit” to her and live happily ever after – in reality it meant that we were/are second class citizens both in this country and many places around the world. We experience a heavy penalty with regard to wage discrimination under the notion that the man is the breadwinner in the family. (even today – check out the recent articles on the continued presence of the glass ceiling, especially with regard to black women) In speaking my female elders they will quietly pull you to the side and talk the rampant domestic abuse that was always accepted for them, it was a tough time with no where to turn because a man had ownership of “his” family and she was expected to submit to his will.

    Today black women still struggle with these issues, especially DV and scary transmission rate of HIV (and don’t forget about the quiet and no less devastating others…). and when I talk to women about these situations they often mention the same idea of not wanting to speak up and feeling that they should claim some type of submission to their man. These rates are the tragic result of the a misguided understanding of what submission is. It isn’t a clean value free word – we can’t say “what it means to me”: it means what it means…”The action or fact of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person.” We are told over and over again that black women are the only women who won’t submit and so, although it is not acknowledged, we redouble our efforts to submit. This propaganda against us is dangerous with regard to the health issues and out of wedlock children and struggle to find black men to commit to long term relationships on an equal basis.

    That’s my two cents.

  • Reality&Truth

    The ‘(Sorta) Ugly’ section should have just been called plain old ‘Ugly’. How sad. But I’m an adult. And my relationship is a partnership – we make plans and decisions as equals. I do not submit because I am my husband’s equal, not his inferior, not his child. We respect each other to make the effort to communicate and understand one another’s point of view. Sometimes, because an issue is more important to the other person, we give in, sometimes we find a compromise.

    Finally, I’m African American, and my ancestors worked very hard, fought and died, so that no one else would dictate to me what my ‘role’ should be. If the only way to get a man was to ‘stick to my role’ barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, then my single self would be just fine chillin in my apartment with my books, cats and tv. Make your own damn sandwich.

  • Ms. Information

    Good point, I guess it is all in the way that you look at something…I think many men look at it in the wrong way – seeking dominance instead of companionship and unity.

  • Overseas_Honeybee

    I was just reading about this today in Ephesians. The whole submission thing has been a bit much for me to swallow too but I think many of us have trouble with it because we don’t understand the full context.

    Submission requires certain conditions to be met first … this includes not submitting to a fool/douche bag in the first place.

    But lest we forget that men have some requirements too and should also read the fine print …husbands must be able to care for their wives every need and be willing to give their lives for her and the family if neccessary.

  • D.T.

    What some fail to realize is that black women were not in the same position as white women during the last women’s movement. White women had the ability to go out and work and go to school without much detriment to their families because white men were in a position to not be replaced. White women had a safety net. Black women saw this and wanted to join forces. The problem was that black men were not given the same privileges as white men and therefore our family structure began to decline. In the black community, feminism was not the answer for the advancement of the black woman.  It was to make sure black men were not able to compete with white men and not needed by black women. This is why you really can’t compare white feminist to black feminist in regards to family structure. 

    The recent feminist wave took place after the civil rights movement. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. Look at the state of the black family at the end of the civil rights movement and look at it today. 

  • Ms. Information

    Ladies, we submit to jobs and management everyday, we submit to the government, we submit to police officers — why not submit to a man that takes a bulk of the responsibility? No, I am not gonna submit to Tyrone who sits at home playing playstation and eating up all of my food while I go to work everyday – but I will submit to the man who works hard to take care of myself and my future children..I will be a foot rubbing, meal cooking, plate bringing woman to a man that deserves it .. the problem is many of us have submitted to men who don’t deserve it.

  • Ms. Information

    @ African Mami – you are too funny!

  • http://magistersthinktank2.blogspot.com The Magister Veritatis

    Please remember that assumptions are the mother of all mistakes because I have a history of dating a significant amount of non black women throughout both throughout high school and college. You’re most uninformed to allege non black women are not submissive just because they were the face of feminism some 50 yrs ago. When those women marched they wanted the same rights and benefits as men, but they also wanted to maintain their preferential treatment as white women.

    Was it not Bell Hooks who wrote about how black women were the “mules” of the Women’s Movement in the 1970′s? Once white women received what they wanted they abandoned black women and went back home to their warm beds and husbands. In the mean time black women were left hat in hand still preaching the I don’t need a man foolishness.

    Ask yourself how many non black women you hear saying they don’t need a man versus that of black women. You are the only group of women promoting that message and have the audacity to ask why you are still single. But I’m done conversing with you because it’s more than obvious you do not know your history and are not qualified to speak on the issue. Thank you and good bye

  • African Mami

    level of submission by both parties-SURE! One-just the man, forget it.

  • Crystal

    And here lies the true meaning of submission. Finally! In essence, if you have two whole people on their separate journey in life with purpose as the forefront they both come together with their purposes merging with a common mission in which they both come under for the greater good of the whole. Like one of the gentleman in the article stated if we are both walking in the same direction with alternating leadership in areas each person whole a strength in. Problems have arose because no one has a complete understanding of the concept of submission. I don’t believe it is antiquated, I just don’t believe it has ever been fully understood properly and in the right context. We, particularly, black families, have struggled to get things accomplished because our families do not have defined interdependent missions/purposes for where the family is headed.

    Sidenote: Submission is a biblical concept that has been long misconstrued do to people trying to understand it by looking up the deeper meaning in Webster. It does not work that way. Every biblical concept must be dissected in fully for complete understanding and that’s even if you are on a walk of understanding under God. The call for a man to love his wife as Christ loved the church is much greater than a wife being asked to submit because Christ died for the church to his flesh. The call for men to die daily to their thoughts, notions, and strongholds is much greater a task.

    But anywho, long story short, submission is NOT about servitude.

  • African Mami

    Why can’t he submit to me, the woman? Why does it have to be him? I’m also putting in work in providing for the future of our children. I’m not just sitting down-waiting for a handout, I’m actively involved in their well being, as that of the whole family’s success.
    I’m going to respect my husband and hold him in the highest regard, but submitting-not unless I’m reincarnated into my beloved cheetah.

  • Hehe

    See here is the big problem with submission everyone has their own definition/try to sugar coat what submission means. Submission is yielding to a superior force. I don’t think my partner is superior to me.My partner is my equal. I don’t subscribe to submission/ men being the head of the household. What because they have a penis they should have the last say/be the head of the household? I do however believe in compromise when it comes to a relationship/

  • Lisss

    I know i was bound to find someone who would make sense so thank you! Certain women who are allergic to the word submission make the same mistake that misogynist men do: they focus on one part of Scripture and forget the rest. It is clearly stated that the man must love his wife like Christ loved the church, therefore meaning being ready to give his life up for her, taking care of her, putting her first in all things (the only One being above her is God), not treating her like crap like centuries of men have done etc… When you have a man like that, tell me what woman will not willingly trust her man to make the right decisions and submit to his plan for his family? Like my pastor said once “If you’re asking for submission, you better make sure you’re worthy of it”. He has to earn the submission, not obtain it simply what’s between his legs is different than mine.

  • African Mami

    Thank you!!

    Hi 5!! A lot of sugar coating about what submission means!!

    Compromise, sure thang!

  • Ms. Information

    @ AM – I just don’t look at it as a negative thing to do…actually submitting is a much harder thing to do than being the leader..I think submission is viewed as a loss of power when in fact it is not….I don’t think that my husband has the right to treat me any kind of way but EVERY aspect of life has a leader..I don’t want many of the responsibilities that men have to carry..

  • Pseudonym

    “As a english major…”

    Study harder!

  • Hehe

    See that’s YOUR definition of submission. The definition of submission is different. Also why does the household needs a head? And why is the man the obligatory head of said household? Why can the household run more like a partnership?

  • Pseudonym

    I’m praying this is a pop culture reference I don’t know about. Praying…

  • Ms. Information

    And a big part of it is that a man (a real man) is supposed to lay his life down for his family…case and point…if someone attempts to harm you or your children, we as women expect the man to take charge and sacrifice his life for the sake of his wife and children…so in that case, we submit because we don’t want to be in danger…I think that a man should be in submission to GOD (for those who believe)..if a man is not in submission to God then I will not submit to him.

  • Ms. Information

    lol..classic.

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    Sit down. BW do that ish, because it is a badge of homor in the balck matriarchy. But it all comes with a price.

    When you tell your men that you are strong & independent, and then you come to the point where you want to drop the label and become someone’s sub-missive house wife, you find that all the potential husbands did one of two things.

    1. Married a submissive black woman or non-BW.
    2. Dropped out economically so even if he wanted to marry you, you would not carry him, the way he would be willing to carry you.

    So you’re father gets it and I am glad he spoke it, because y’all obviously don’t listen to your potential marriage counterparts

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    Y’all gonna be eternally single on this thread, but please leave BM as the reason for it…

    I will enjoy my trashy dominican chica who has no problem getting on her knees

  • Ms. Information

    Don’t forget to take your HIV meds!

  • Ms. Information

    @ Nakia, no…do what you want to. Find someone with similar beliefs to you..no one is trying to force their opinion or belief set onto you.

  • Kam

    Well that explains a lot. Though the idea is incredibly foreign to me. I was definitely ot raised that way and none of my relatives marriages are that way. All I can say is I am really thankful that I have my parents’ and other relatives’ marriages as role models, and I am really thankful that I have not dated men who held to this idea of submission. I am really thankful to have one now that does not need a slave to feel good about himself. He’s getting a hug and kiss when he comes back home tonight.

  • libpatriot

    My relationship is a 21st century relationship. A partnership, where we make decisions and plans and dreams together. The operative word here is “WE” I’ve never been a fan of male privilege and therefore will not live that way. I know some who chose the submission route, not a lot of success there. The wife always feels as if, she is doing everything and the husband is doing nothing. No thank you. Partnership or single hood, both are better, IMO than submission.

  • http://www.facebook.com/felicityrankinsrhode Felicity Rhode

    Submission is freeing. I can’t tell you the amount of pressure that got lifted off my shoulders the day I married my husband (and decided to submit to him). He is the leader of our household, and I wouldn’t want it to be any other way. Of course we work together, but I trust his judgement. Leaves me to be comfortable. It’s wonderful.

    If you can’t see yourself submitting to a man, you certainly shouldn’t be marrying him. That makes no sense to me.

  • lol

    agree with Crystal and all. black men have no plan, but want to lead. if you want to take this biblically like Crystal, Christ died for the church, how many men would die for their wives?

  • Lisss

    Thank you Ms. Information. My comment wa in response to Overseas who mentioned Ephesians (which is why i said Thank you). I carefully avoided all of the other commentators because it was clear that we were not coming from the same place. I’m sorry if thatw a snot clear…Clutch always has a way of making my comments show up as general comments.

  • Ms. Information

    You are welcome, I just don’t want this to turn into a Christian vs others debate…I am like do what you want..not trying to make you live any specific way.

  • OSHH

    @ Lisss
    not so much earn but he has to submit to GOD first himself and seek GOD’s direction for how to best lead the household and cover his wife and children.
    God has to be first for in that man’s in order for him to even be even worthy of submitting to.

  • Lisss

    @ OSHH Thank you and amen!

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    i am a man. i don’t want nobody submitting to me.
    i want a partner, not a servant.

  • Yb

    Wow. That’s really sad that you have to PAY an exploited, improvised women, from a third world country because no other woman willingly wants to be with you. I’m not even trying to throw shade. It is literally SAD.

    Speaks more of your character then the women in this site who you are trying to belittle.

  • http://[email protected] Blackgirlmd

    I really don’t know why this issue raises so much ire. I think it’s because both sides want to change the other sides mind and that’s just not going to happen… No matter how right one side believes they are lol.

    Personally, I don’t really like the idea of submission. I’m HIGHLY educated, have accomplished quite a bit, and have been living on my own for quite some time now, HOWEVER…. I know the type of guy that I want is a guy who wants to be a leader of his household, who is decisive and takes his job as a provider for our family seriously, among other characteristics…. And generally guys like that want wives that will heed to their direction AKA submit. So, if I want that type of guy… Submission is something that I’m goin to have to do, and I need to be good at doing.

    Its silly when women say they want a strong alpha make type, he bristle at the idea of submitting to anyone. Just like its silly when girls out here talking abt they want a “corporate thug”… those are two environments breed two opposite (and not so complementary) skill sets. It’s an unfair expectation that is ONLY placed on black men, and usually ONLY by black women. But that’s a story for another day.

    But my whole point is… If you can’t deal with the submission thing, that’s fine. Just no that that’s what a significant amount of guys are checking for, and you’re limiting your dating pool by not falling in line with that. The same goes for guys… You want a submissive woman, a lot of women aren’t feeling that, so you’ll be limiting your dating pool in that sense as well. If you’re okay with that fine. But all this acting out tryna change the other side’s mind is not going to amount to anything.

  • libpatriot

    Wise words, Sir

  • http://succulentwomenfindlove.com Trenia

    What these men said in the post is exactly why the divorce rate is so high. I’ve said this over and over again and I’ll say it again: men are still looking for a submissive wife, while women are changing and evolving in their wants and needs in relationships. Just from a practical standpoint, submission doesn’t make sense for me personally, but I have no problem with anyone who wants that for their relationship. But the reality is if your man is bad with money, for example, he should not be the final authority on financial decisions for an entire household. That has nothing to do with the Bible, submission or anything else, that’s common sense.
    We are in the midst of a relationship paradigm shift and unfortunately, a lot of women will likely end up single while men re-adjust. The other problem is assuming that marriage is the ultimate state of being for everyone. Men will often hurl certain words at women like single, lonely, desperate and bitter as though they were some kind of disease. But it isn’t. If a woman feels lonely at times, so what? That’s life on life’s terms, there are plenty of lonely married people too.

    In terms of men handling crises better? Are you kidding me?! Women bring children into this world and men think they handle things better? Women often get emotional about things, but the problem is the very way in which we talk about these things. Linear thinking is supposedly good, and using emotion to inform descions is bad. Some women might be emotional with decision-making, but what do men do? They might look for a resolution alright, which might be to just pick up and leave. The rate of men walking out on their families is much higher than for women.

  • ?!?

    Dude seriously? You are all over the Internet hating on black women like an obsessed attention-seeking little troll. If other women are so much better and you have no problem getting them, how do you have so much time to be on these sites? You say you are indifferent, but you are obviously obsessed and full of hate. Only whack dudes complain about women being strong and independent. That is what ALL women do these days. They get jobs and support themselves. You all are constantly complaining about golddiggers. You should be happy about this. Black women aren’t running around getting in men’s faces singing Ms. Independent like men like you make it seem.

    Yea. Your trashy Dominican chick. I feel sorry for those women. They’re poor and uneducated. It’s a way for them to make money. That’s right. Men have to BUY submission. You’re just upset because you can’t afford to get a trophy wife in America. In America, dimes don’t submit to a man just because he is a man. They submit because of money. That’s the way it’s always been. In the good ole days that you all like to romanticize, women submitted to a man because he put a roof over their head and food in their bellies. Some of you guys are butthurt because women don’t submit for so little these days. You know they got all independent, so they don’t wanna submit to men who aren’t financially stable and good looking. There’s nothing in the water in the Carribean. The women there just have less opportunities. If you took American black women and took away their jobs, education, and right to own property or rent (go back to the good ole days) they would probably start submitting real fast. If you put those Dominican women here, they would probably stop banging many of you men lol. And you all think it’s because they know how to treat a man like a man lol. No. They know they need money, and they use their bodies to get it. Are we supposed to be jealous of these exploited women?

  • African Mami

    @Ms. Info,

    Great points, of which I thoroughly refute on the premise of:

    Submission is indeed loss of power, no matter how you look at it. When you submit, you essentially subjugate your powers in favor of his-willingly or unwillingly, depending on arrangement. Which then means, that as his wife, he has the last word in important decision making-of which then, my soul shall forever be in wanton unrest.

    I want a 50/50 situation in which, as mentioned in the article by one of those that were interviewed, we play off our strengths. If I’m good with finances, and he is good with conflict resolution skills, let it be that our strengths lead and compliment each other. Let compromise be the mediator of our problems. If all else fails, I’m willing to try submission (*faints*)

    It’s great to see how you are thinking, and viewing it as a positive thing. I’m just seeing an oppressed African Mami washing dishes, crying and wishing for the 2nd ascent of our Lord Jesus Christ.

  • African Mami

    uh oh!! C’mon now! Catching the next train to illy Philly boo boo!! Meet me with some goat stew and rice. Yes, Lawwd

  • Ms. Information

    It’s so funny, my mom does not cook (not her thing)..my dad does that…in fact my dad does a lot…maybe even more housework than my mom…that is why I don’t limit submission to cooking and cleaning…My dad is better with finances..so if she wants to purchase something, she lets him know (a form of submission) because he knows what is in the account to spend after bills…my mom has her strong points (she is hilarious like you) and runs a school and works really hard…I think at the end of the dad I just look at it like a mutual respect…under a unified plan. Don’t faint..lol…I promise it works in favor of the woman..lol

  • African Mami

    girrrrrl, this is why iHEART you! We never snatch wigs, even when we don’t agree with each other!!

    Kudos to mommy!! Say hi to her for me! Tell her she got a twin straight from the motherland!!

  • ?!?

    Oh you’re one of those black women destroyed the black community with feminism people. Black women have always worked in this country. When the factory jobs went away, black women definitely had to work to support their families because black men couldn’t find work and were discriminated against. Also black women didn’t kick black men out of the house because of feminism and welfare. That’s just another lie you all like to tell to lay all the problems with the black community on black women.

    All of those women saying they don’t need a man are really women who couldn’t keep a man, but they say that to try to hide that.

    Basically you all think the problems with the black community are because black women won’t submit and take their rightful subordinate place lol.

    You say you are a woman, but you are just too male identified. I am a black woman and have no problem with criticism of black women, but many people like you simply blame black women for everything and forgive the men of all of their transgressions. You are probably a man.

  • Ms. Information

    @ Mami…luv you too chica…no splitting wigs over here…I can disagree and then go buy you lunch…I can debate and be too cool after, I do it with my friends all of the time..lol..life is too short to try to make everyone agree with you…let me get outta here…type to you later..have a blessed one..ain’t no ocean ain’t no sea ;)

  • ?!?

    A woman on YouTube explains this well I think. In the “good ole days” men had to buy submission. Of course a woman who can’t work and depends on a man will submit or else she will be kicked out. Women don’t submit to a man just because he is a man. They submit because he protects, provides, and problem solves. Many women will not respect you or deem you worthy of submission unless you do these things. Independent women see no point in submitting to a man especially if he is not the providing as the main breadwinner or contributing substantially to the household. Independent women don’t want to submit. They are more interested in teamwork, but she also goes on to say women should submit.

    I think women should do the 21st century version of submitting. Be less argumentative. Be considerate. Women make the majority of household decisions. Let him make some every now and then.

    But yea. That old fashioned submission that these men want has to be bought. They can’t afford trophy wives or mail order brides. Men who can’t afford submission but still see women as playthings who are now to mouthy go off to Brazil and the Dominican Republic to buy exploited mulatto prostitutes to submit. Are they marrying these lovely submitting ladies?

    Basically, I think women should “submit” in the 21st century way to men who are worthy. Men who protect, provide, and solve problems.

  • OSHH

    @ Trenia, I hear what you saying. A strong leader is practical and wise, knowing what his strengths and weaknesses are. Like the money thing, should be delegated to the wife who is stronger in that area in the example you used. Not about pride but again doing what is best for the family unit.

  • Lisss

    @ Nakia Then i will gladly repond to your question: If you are not a christian, then no, the Bible does not apply to you.

  • Ang

    Show me a GOOD Black man and I’ll show you a submissive Black woman….To whom much is given, much is expected.

  • E.M.S.

    We as women do not allow ourselves to be second banana to a man because we know our worth. We know we deserve to be treated as an equal. Why would we subject ourselves to a relationship with someone who thinks they run the show? That’s not what love is.

    And a little newsflash for men who don’t seem to get it: In the event we do “submit”, recognize it’s not because you are the boss, it’s because we have learned how to play along to our advantage (a man whose ego is well stroked is more likely to sway on certain matters). You’re not number one by default or in actuality, we simply let you think you are.

  • E.M.S.

    Interesting concept about “21st century submission,” but I don’t agree that being less argumentative and more considerate is submission. It’s common sense as a human being. It’s having grace. These are merely good personality traits you should have regardless.

  • http://twitter.com/gennatay Gina (@gennatay)

    It is all in how the couple takes “submission” into context. Some of you sound like you just want a room mate and not a life partner. I purposely kept the part of our vows of “Love, Honor and Obey” in my vows as I knew that my role of wife was going to be completely different from my role as girlfriend. We are amenable in our marriage and respect each others decisions. However, he is the head of my household and I respect him as a man and my husband.

  • http://[email protected] Blackgirlmd

    I also don’t understand why it’s a problem if men think they handle crises better. If that what my man thinks, I’m all for it. I want him to think he’s good at handling crises… It’s good for his confidence lol. I’m all about making gentle suggestions and guiding men in the right direction… Cuz they definitely need our help for sure. But I don’t feel the need to go around telling ppl hat I run this house, or even that things are 50-50. My boo can have all of that lol.

  • MissDee

    Errm an African Mami that rejects submission? Interesting. As a married woman and an African, I was raised to always see the man as the head of the family, and the woman the heart. This has worked like magic since I married about 4 years ago. In this modern times that roles ain’t gender bias, most ladies find it difficult to ‘agree’ with their men on anything they deem as an ‘instruction’. Just know how to treat your man with the respect he deserves and I repeat the word deserves and he’ll come running anytime you lift a finger. Who said marriage ain’t working anymore? Mine is like heaven! And by the way, I’m as opinionated as a woman can be!

  • Leonard Smalls

    Interesting comment; however, allow me to add the following:

    1. submit or grow old (which reduces her chances at romance/companionship) and die alone in a house full of cats (but still be independent);
    2. if you don’t submit (i.e. give your power to your husband), then he will not give you his heart (i.e. his source of power);
    3. most western women reject marriage and submission (hence the demographics issues present in the West); and
    4. does not really matter whether she chooses not to submit, because someone else will and that particular woman will benefit the man surrenders his heart in return.

    Please note, that I acknowledge that the above may sound harsh, but contemporary westernized Colored women need a wake up call. The community can’t afford to their “tutelage” any longer, the last three decades under their leadership has been abysmal, to say the least.

  • Candi83

    @Hehe

    I agree with you. Why does the head of the household have to be a man? I think the husband and wife can run the household together.

  • Candi83

    “Some women (such as myself) have no problem submitting to their husbands (in my case future husband). The key though is being with the right man to submit to. Not every man (just because he has male male organs) is declared a leader.”
    ^^ this!! 1+

    At the same time, both husbands and wives need to submit to each other.

  • Candi83

    AMEN!!

  • Kaila

    I think the problem is today the word submit has a very negative connotation. Submission is something we all do. We submit to our bosses and the government everyday. It’s a matter of respect. Obeying means “to listen”. It doesn’t mean you can’t speak your mind or opinion but you respect your husband’s position as head of the house. There should also be a mutual submission (respect), not oppression. You are a team, but a body can’t function with two heads. You can communicate, but let your husband make the finale decision. With that in mind, its important who you choose as a husband.

  • African Mami

    @ Miss Dee

    I’ve stated numerously, down-thread that I will respect and hold my husband in the highest regard, not because he is a man but by virtue of him being human and deserving of that. I have absolutely no issue agreeing with a man, whilst also not having any shame or guilt respectfully disagreeing with him. I was never raised with that notion of heartbeats, so….

    But, glad to hear that your marriage is going well! Wish you many more years of blessed wedded bliss!!

  • African Mami

    Loool!! Girrrl, I ain’t looking for a roommate-craigslist can help me out with that. Life partner, it is…..He just has to understand that I ain’t with the submission blah blah blah. That’s all. Mind you, I’ll cook, clean, serve him (if I’m in the mood) not because it is expected of me as his wife, but because I want to.

    But, if it works for you and your marriage-kudos mami!! Happy for ya’ll.

  • http://gravatar.com/nolakiss16 binks

    Thank you, people are trying to pretty up the word and try to spin it when you CAN’T…. true there are different levels of submission and what some see as “perks” to submitting to someone but you are still yielding to someone you place above you when in marriage I thought you want someone BESIDES you. Besides these “perks” some are listing of well he is a good provider, father, protector, etc. well he is being an ADULT in a relationship those aren’t perks but things you are suppose to look for in a mate these qualities does not require submission. And co-sign African Mami posts and a few others.

    SUBMISSION: 1. The action or fact of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person. 2. An act of surrendering to a hold by one’s opponent.

  • African Mami

    @ LS,

    1.) What kind of utter nonsense is this?
    2.) Again, what nonsense is this. You and Tyrese need to stop the madness.
    3.) ??!??!
    4.) they were not meant to be, simple as that.

    Well, if it has mean abysmal why didn’t you and your fellow men rise to the occasion of leadership. Abeg, commot for road!

  • Sweetles

    I happily submit to my husband. He is the protector and maintainer, the head of household. I am educated and strong, and have not lost any “power”. In fact, I feel I have more power because that man will do anything for his family, as I have noted year after year. Submission does not mean that if he says jump, you ask how high. I think that word gets a bad rep. My marriage is a partnership. He has his strong points, and I have mine. We work together, but he is the head and is respected as such. It will work if it is done right. Just my two cents.

  • MimiLuvs

    Well, I am an atheist, so the biblical definition of “obey” and “submit” is something that goes into one ear and out the other.

  • D.T.

    No, I am not a man. I am a lady. I do not blame black women for everything however I think it is necessary to discuss our shortcomings (especially in regards to men/relationships and family). With this site being geared towards women, I thought this would be the place to have discussions about our strong and weak points. Unfortunately, I am noticing anytime someone is critical of black women, that person is automatically considered a man or a troll. Since there are plenty women on here that are proud feminist and always talking about how wonderful black women are, it would only make since that there is room for those that are critical and not always giving black women high fives. I mean I see the greatness in black women but I refuse to act as though I am not utterly disgusted by the antics of many black women as well.

    Now do i come across harsh sometimes? Sure, and that is something I am willing to work on however my viewpoints will remain the same. The assumptions and accusations without addressing my points are pretty annoying but I will attempt to work on my approach.

  • Mademoiselle

    I don’t get why marriage has to involve competition. I thought 2 people getting married was for the purpose of joining forces to accomplish more than individuals are capable of on their own. Why does there have to be one person in charge or making all the decisions, then? Why would I need to submit? Aren’t all the decisions joint? Does this mean every time a decision gets made, it reads as “the husband decided x, and the wife submitted to it?” What if she has a great idea? Does submission preclude her from presenting it? What if he has no ideas? Does submitting mean the man is now obligated to know everything? That’s a lot of pressure!

    I just don’t understand why the topic of obedience/dominance/leadership/submission/power is even part of a discussion about marriage. I never dreamed of finding my soul mate so that I could hand over all of my autonomy/authority to him. I also never dreamed of the opposite. Aren’t “husband” and “wife” prestigious enough titles? People need to tack on “head of” and “leader of” to it? Why? What exactly does it prove?

  • Mademoiselle

    . I don’t get why marriage has to involve competition. I thought 2 people getting married was for the purpose of joining forces to accomplish more than individuals are capable of on their own. Why does there have to be one person in charge or making all the decisions, then? Why would I need to submit? Aren’t all the decisions joint? Does this mean every time a decision gets made, it reads as “the husband decided x, and the wife submitted to it?” What if she has a great idea? Does submission preclude her from presenting it? What if he has no ideas? Does submitting mean the man is now obligated to know everything? That’s a lot of pressure!

    I just don’t understand why the topic of obedience/dominance/leadership/submission/power is even part of a discussion about marriage. I never dreamed of finding my soul mate so that I could hand over all of my autonomy/authority to him. I also never dreamed of the opposite. Aren’t “husband” and “wife” prestigious enough titles? People need to tack on “head of” and “leader of” to it? Why? What exactly does it prove?

  • http://gravatar.com/ceecollegegal CeeCee

    Submission.. er no. -_-

    I am adult and I don’t want or need anyone making decisions for me. A relationship includes two individuals and both individuals should participate in the decision making process. I don’t find submission appealing whatsoever, in fact I feel as though it infringes upon my rights as an American citizen. I mean…didn’t our ancestors fight to be freed? Isn’t a partner in life more realistic? If submission was so great then why did all of the baby boomers divorce back in the day? lol

  • brinstarr

    You appear to be the only person in this thread I can fully agree with.

    Ugh, I’m disgusted with so many of the other comments. What century is it, again?

  • brinstarr

    Maybe because I am more than a Stepford wife? I know that’s hard to understand but just because you have a vagina doesn’t mean you are LESS than somebody with a penis.

    I was not put on this Earth to “Submit”. I guess that’s also why I am a self employed tradeswoman.

    Lead, follow or get out of the way? I’ll take the first option.

  • brinstarr

    Is that what life is about? Acting like a lesser beast when a man walks in the room?

    Sorry, but there is more to my life than being treated like a child or an invalid. If you have no backbone, that’s fine. BUT I DO.

  • lol

    how about you let other people have their own opinions just as they let you have yours, hm?

  • http://www.facebook.com/ariamirobi Ariel Robinson

    +1000000

  • grateful

    @African Mami

    i just died.

    lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • lol

    no need to insult.

  • Paul

    To all those who say submission does not mean a woman subordinating herself to a man, here’s an idea -

    call whatever it is you’re envisioning something else. LIke

    ABDICATION.

    Abdicating YOUR adulthood

    That’s a far more accurate term to define the examples that some are using to describe “submission” here.

    LOL!

    Either way the term submission has too many negative connotations – a bad rep. Nothing you say will make it palatable to INTELLIGENT people.

  • ?!?

    Yes. Well that isn’t submission in my book. This is what many anti-submission women have mentioned in this thread that they are willing to do for their partners. Being nice, being considerate, respecting your husband and not emasculating him aren’t submission to me. Submission involves servitude and ruler/follower roles. The men that the author interviewed said they didn’t want a submissive woman. They wanted what you and your husband have. I think people just have different definitions of what submission is. Some people are leaning more towards your definition, but some of these men are assists and want women to get back in the kitchen. That is why they use that wording of submission which hints at servitude. Why not just say you want respect, compassion, and compromise? It’s because some of them long for the good ole days. From a lot of them who deliberately use the word submission, I hear that they want a woman to make sandwiches and roll over without mouthing off. That’s what I think when I think of submission. If that’s not what they mean, I don’t know why they use that word. They could simply say be less argumentative. Be more compassionate. Don’t disrespect me. Don’t emasculate me. They deliberately choose the word submit which implies domination. It’s because some of them see women as emotional creatures who exist to serve them and who feel like women only when they are told what to do. Some of them want a maid/chef/bedmate who doesn’t give lip.

    Any woman in a relationship should be willing to do those things. That is not submitting. Respect, teamwork, and compromise. That’s being a good partner.

  • ?!?

    This was in reply to Sweetles. I don’t know how it got all down here.

  • http://www.facebook.com/arleneep Arlene Pitterson

    if he takes your car to be washed, makes sure you have your oil changed, tires are in working order and rotated – is it submission to his female or he’s supposed to do that because he’s a man?
    if he takes out the garbage after you’ve cooked – is that submission or is he supposed to do that because he’s a man?

    men, in general, like to protect. those are the men will walk on the side of the road near traffic, guide you across the street by placing their hand on the small of your back, open doors, bring you a drink because they want to protect the person they care about. that’s their version of submission.

    The man may be the head, but we are the neck and we can move it any way we like. The most powerful person in the company isn’t the CEO – its their executive assistant.

  • alyssaj

    Truth!!

  • NTG

    Gon’ head girl lol. That was a very nice and tasteful explanation. People tend to overlook the many things men do for us as a whole.

  • sosickandtiredofthisish

    Geezus Khrist. For the love of ALL that is holy I wish Black bloggers would leave this old, tired, dead azz topic alone. This antiquated notion is as played out as the majority of marriages are. ENOUGH already. Thank you and Kudos to African Mami, Binks and all the strong, intelligent and independent men and women on this board who know what time it is. If it ain’t a partnership, it ain’t nothing at all. I would gladly stay single the rest of my natural life if it meant anything less. PERIOD end of this wack azzed discussion.

  • brinstarr

    Thank you for this. I was alone up there wondering if it was the 18th century all by myself…

    But yes, preach it!

  • Jae Bee

    How have you decided that the husband should be the
    rightful “head of house”? Is it because of tradition? Is it something biblical? What if a couple wants a nontraditional marriage? What if someone is not religious?

  • Shelly

    The thing I don’t get is that black women see the horrendous state that the black community has been in for decades, we’ve seen the breakdown of our families and we hear about the statistics of us being single mothers and not getting married……yet, we want to keep things the way they are. Men are telling us what they want, but we keep arguing with them, as if that will change anything. Instead of wanting so badly to be independent, why don’t we be the bigger person and listen to what these men are trying to tell us. Why don’t we work with them so we can all work on building our families and communities back up. Is being independent really worth allowing the black community to stay in shambles? Please, women, put your pride aside. We are going to be at the bottom of the totem pole forever if we don’t cooperate with each other and start doing things differently. Please.

  • lol

    taking all these women to school!

  • African Mami

    A man will cheat REGARDLESS of whether you submit or not. Being submissive does not heighten his chances of NOT cheating, with an uglier or ugly woman. Please!

  • Sweetles

    I’ll take that.

  • Humanista

    Compromise is always good. Submission shouldn’t even enter the conversation until marriage does. And, you don’t submit out of fear–to keep or be kept. Submitting should never be about power, and if someone comes at you looking at it from the perspective of keeping power over you, you better RUN, ladies! True, healthy submission comes naturally, simply because you trust the guidance of your spouse. And it GOES BOTH WAYS.

    If you can’t trust the judgement of your spouse you’ve picked that wrong one, and good luck to you.

    (I don’t subscribe to the common understanding of “submission”.)

  • ?!?

    This comment reeks of desperation. You think the low marriage rates are because black women aren’t marriage material.

    These anti-submission commenters agreed with what these men said. Black women listen to what men say all the time. They buy those stupid books all the time. Do you really think we run in men’s faces and tell them we don’t need a man while stereotypically rolling our necks and snapping our fingers? There are many black women out there trying to fix whatever new thing people say is wrong with them. It still doesn’t bring a proposing man. We’re supposed to think it’s because of us?

    No. You believe the stereotype that black women have attitudes and that’s why we’re not married or deserving of happiness.

    But many black women have no problem snagging or keeping a man. The problem they have is walking down the aisle. Many black women have stupidly been in very long long term relationships that never led to a marriage. They shack up with these men, have their babies, and he never puts a ring on it. So I don’t think it’s their attitudes. Don’t let that 70% statistic make you all sad and depressed. That doesn’t mean 70% of black women are alone with a houseful of cats eating tubs of ice cream and watching Bridget Jones’ Diary. This is single in the legal sense. They aren’t married. It includes black women in relationships, black women dating, black women shacking up, and black people who think marriage aint nothin but a piece of paper. It also includes the sad bunch. There are lots of black women in relationships, so somehow I think they manage to keep their neck rolling in check.

    Two big problems in the black community are (1) Black women keep having babies by men they aren’t married to (2) Black men aren’t getting married and impregnating women they aren’t married to.

    So the whole community would improve if black men and women walked their behinds down the aisle and produced babies inside of wedlock and raised those kids to the best of their ability.

    These men that the author interviewed did not want a submissive woman. They said what they wanted. Lots of men have said whatthey wanted. Lots of people with successful marriages have talked about why their marriages work. They never mention submission. You all would rather look back at romanticized housewives of the past and say look at how well submission worked. You don’t think about the fact that low divorce rates back then didn’t necessarily mean that women were happy. Women back then couldn’t work and would be destitute if they didn’t work it out with their husbands, that doesn’t mean they were happy. It means they knew who was providing their next meal. Should we go back to the time when women were powerless? Is that the reason why divorce rates were low back then but they are high now? Submission.

  • Hmm……

    This is so stupid. Of course we know that gender roles exist. I think the majority of women know that they will be cooking and cleaning. Cooking and cleaning is not submitting. That’s stupid. Is that what you really think submitting is? Many women have no problem with cooking and cleaning. Are you all really running into black women who seem okay at first but then refuse to cook and clean? Or are you stereotyping? You all keep bringing up this image of a black woman rolling her neck and snapping her fingers saying she don’t need no man, but are you constantly running into these types of women? I must live in a different world. Obviously these women exist or else the stereotype wouldn’t be there, but it is not the MAJORITY. Many black women DO know how to cook and clean no matter what the “artist” who drew that cartoon said. I know what happens. You all run up on the dimes and you’re upset that they’re not the entire package. They’re just the looks. Sometimes they have attitude and no skills.

    Did any woman commenting here say she wouldn’t cook or clean? None that I’ve seen. They said that they wouldn’t let a man be a dictator over them. That is what submission involves not simply cooking and cleaning. Is this what all of you have been talking about when it comes to submission? How is cooking and cleaning being dominated over? Submission makes women think that men will be issuing commands. No woman wants that.

    Most women here know they will be doing the majority of the cooking, cleaning, and raising of the children. Why are you acting like gender roles have been thrown away? They haven’t. Women still do the same cooking and cleaning. The majority of women still do those things. Men help out more now with chores, but many women are still doing the bulk of these things even though they work a 9-5, and you’re still complaining. I get the idea that you think women should do all these things and simply not ask you to wash dishes or vacuum or put the kids to bed now and then. I think that’s what submission means to you. You don’t want a woman who expects you to help out. You want a woman that submits by doing these things all by herself. Whatever. That sounds awful selfish and inconsiderate to me, but many women still do household chores without help from their partner, so let’s not pretend like women are just emasculating men with their overbearing feminism and refusal to cook and clean lol.

    Cheating? Men cheat on their submissive women all the time. Often times they do it with a much more interesting woman. JFK and Marilyn Monroe is an example, but happened many times in the romanticized days when housewifery was big.

    And yea. Cooking and cleaning is not what we mean when we say submission. We mean being told what to do like a child or not having our opinions heard. That is submission to us.

  • African Mami

    Lollll, no. Keewwwl. Let’s hear from them.

  • D.T.

    Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! These same women will be 40 years old staring at their degrees wondering “where are the good black men.”

    How can people look around and see the condition of the black family and not recognize the need for change? Pride is something else I tell you!

  • http://rhode180.wordpress.com rhode180

    Actually, this is my wife, and she is far from ‘lesser’ in any sense of the word. Her ‘submission’ = allowing me to be a man, make certain decisions for the household, make mistakes, and to set an example that I can follow when necessary.

    In turn, because she allows me to be the man, it FORCES me to be that man. It’s a beautiful balance. It allows me to take that weight off of her shoulders, and to be honest, no man is going to carry the weight of any woman who doesn’t trust her with it.

  • http://rhode180.wordpress.com rhode180

    *him

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    A white guy schooled me on how to stay away from HIV @Ms Information, check it out…

    Like BW in the states are disease free LOL

    How to avoid STDs, Pt. 1

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    @Shelly, I love you & your good intentions, but I really believe we are too far gone… Ireally do

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    @SMH

    Time and time again, modern women try to sell themselves to men by marketing traits men either don’t want, don’t need, or already have. by Professor Mentu

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    Whatever you decide to do “?!?”, just leave BM out of your mouth (unless of course you are getting on your knees to swallow.)

    @Shelley understands where BW and the black community is headed & it looks like BW will not have choice to submit or not. By choice or by force. Or just be alone.

    It reminds me of saying about “Every knee shall bow & overy tongue shall confess” I am not religious, but I do believe in the saying, you will come to church. Either you will walk in (alive) or get rolled in (you know what I mean.)

  • Overseas_Honeybee

    @Ms. Info … I see you in here dropping wisdom. Teach on. Very valid points. We as women must have standards in place and hold them.

    A man must be submitted to God or whatever spirtual authority he recognizes before he can lead or expect a woman to be submitted to him in return.

  • Patience

    How does one ‘allow’ another to be the sex he was born as? If a woman doesn’t ‘allow’ a man to be a man, then what is he?

  • http://twitter.com/gennatay Gina (@gennatay)

    SMH… you have to let a man be a man not just when you want him to. You cant want a gentleman all the time if you’re only a lady “if you’re in the mood”

  • http://twitter.com/gennatay Gina (@gennatay)

    You’re going to respect him because he’s a human being and NOT because hes a man? What type of logic is that? So are you saying your going to give your husband the same level or respect you give ANY man?

  • http://twitter.com/gennatay Gina (@gennatay)

    There are a lot of single people commenting on this subject who wonder why they are still single.

  • http://twitter.com/gennatay Gina (@gennatay)

    Because its still a relevant subject. There are more baby showers in the Black community than there are weddings/marriages. If all you’re looking for is a partnership then go start a business because a marriage is much more than that.

  • Marriage is the best

    If u work a job or if self-employed u submit all the time to ur boss or clients.

  • Sweetles

    I am glad somebody said it.

  • Ms. Information

    Men like you are funny to me…you hate black women, yet you come to black women’s site to taunt? I never said that we were disease free, but since you like leaving people “gems” let me leave you one on DR..smooches.

    http://www.dr1.com/articles/prostitution_1.shtml

  • SHELL

    THANK YOU!!!

    Submission does not mean your a door mat, a slave, spineless woman. It over standing an order. What wrong with acknowledging that a man is the head of the house hold. Every one cannot be chief. It does not mean your less than in a marriage.

    To me submission is knowing my very active and important role in my family. My husband is the head and I’m the body. Its not about control but about being a team. there aren’t 2 captains on a team. there’s a captain and a co-captain/ president and a vice president. Partners all the way..100%
    I am not a door mat or dog Sh*t under my husbands shoe. I am his wife and the mother of his children a child of the MOST HIGH. I am a very opinionated woman, and being submissive helps our marriage thrive.. he isn’t afraid to talk to me, or to tell me something is or went wrong….I’m not going to bash him, make him feel like a loser or not valued and i get the same respect.

    Knowing how to talk and treat my man like a MAN. When something goes wrong I’m not embarrassing him, yelling and being rude, telling him off or treating him like a child to show how STRONG I am. I can do that just by being me.

    A lot of you go to work everyday and make sure your in your chair at the right time, do what you boss says with a smile, isn’t that submission??
    When a police officer tells you to pull over and says license and registration with out a please or thank you and you hand it over isn’t that submission??
    But, your black man that goes to work every day and helps to provide for the family doesn’t get that same respect….Interesting…

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    @Ms. Informarion

    Good to know. Dominican girls here & abroad are still a better bet than black women as we speak, so that say alot about sista than it does about chicas.

    It is too much fun poking y’all in the ribs because even at spinster age y’all still won’t get your collective acts together. Y’all just waiting for another Hurricane Katrina moment & then you will wake up.

  • SHELL

    I am a happily married woman and I am submissive to my husband. All this talk about partnership and teams…yea duh!! But there aren’t 2 captains on a team. there’s the HEAD captain and the CO captain, The President and the Vice President..
    Its in a mans natural instinct to be the head. why does there have to be a power struggle? whats wrong with letting a man be the head of the household like he was designed to be. I’m not talking about control, abuse or slavery. Im talking about a natural order. You can be a head strong, independent and a submissive wife. Who says that you cant??
    I’m talking about knowing how to talk and treat your man like a man. Not belittling him, talking over him, downing him when something goes wrong. that’s why a lot of men end up having emotional relationships that eventually turn physical. because their wife at home wont stop treating her man like a little man boy.
    My husband respects my mind and my spirit. He loves that fact that I’m still sassy but, I’m not rude and over bearing.

    When you go to work everyday and your boss ask you to do something im sure you SUBMIT and do it. You make sure you SUBMIT and get to work on time, SUBMIT to the dress codes and rules of the office.

    A police officer asking you to SUBMIT to him by handing over your license and registration.

    So whats the problem with submitting to your man who you claim to love and care about?

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    And you act as though, women don’t do that sh*t here in the coastal cities & and they have more opportunities.

  • Ms. Information

    Yep…and there HAS to be a corelation between the two…

  • Ms. Information

    No, I don’t absolve black women from anything, black men either..I also know that we are individuals that are a part of a collective group. Men like you lump all of us into one group and then you find a site to dump things that you think will hurt and degrade us i.e. dating other races, going to the Dominican Rep. But my mother taught me wherever you go, there you are. If you have issues with women because of your mother, you can move to Tinbucktu, you will still have those issues until you resolve them. See, unlike you, I know that there are good men out here. I don’t lump all men into that “nigga ain’t s^&%” category. I know that it is mathematically impossible for an entire race of men to be horrible. But men like you don’t give us that respect. Black women are not homogenous. We don’t agree on everything, Just like our skin and hair we vary in degrees of opinion. Stop lumping us into your version of what you think we are.

  • MimiLuvs

    I am surprise that his comment was able to post.

  • MimiLuvs

    I find it interesting how this thread started out good and then turn into complete sh!t .

  • ?!?

    I’ll leave that for your “trashy Dominican chica.”

    And where do you see our communities going? Mini-Rwandas and Congos?

  • Ms. Information

    So you admit to being satanic and attempting to poke us with your proverbial fork? Son, you don’t exist without us..you are a part of us whether you like it or not. So instead of exibiting childish and bitch ass behavior…why not help some of your brothers that are struggling..black men are on the streets in droves, poor, unemployed, underemployed…and you have time to taunt women that you hate…tsk..tsk…go get your dominican wife and leave us alone…we don’t need you.

  • African Mami

    Simply put, gender dominance is not going to be a factor in respect given.

  • ?!?

    @SHELL – I just don’t get why you all are saying that. Most of these women said they have no problem doing that! I mentioned that women should do that. The women on this thread agreed with what the men said. You all are acting like all of us are sitting here typing that we don’t need no man. We are strong and independent black and woman and yada yada yada. Many women who are against submission have said that they are willing to cook, clean, be less argumentative, and let him make the big decisions while we make the smaller ones. We said that we will respect him as the leader and head of household. That is not submission to me. Submission is more than that. It IS about being a servant. It is about being seen as inferior like a childish woman who needs to be told how to function.

    This is simply a silly disagreement about what submission means to people. I never hear non-black couples talking about submission. That’s because they don’t see that as submission. I don’t either. That is simply being a good partner. Why you all want to label these things submission is beyond me.

  • African Mami

    I’ll respectfully agree to highly disagree with you.

  • African Mami

    Oh miiiii gosh,I have to say ya’ll are shoooo kiiiyute!! (the Rhode’s)

  • MimiLuvs

    @ African Mami: I understand your point of view. I didn’t know giving yourself a night off from cooking gives your significant other the excuse to act like an uncouth savage towards you. Ha, what do you know? I learn something new.

  • MimiLuvs

    Which is why it is better to ignore them. And they truly say something vile, click on the “report” button. Not all of the male, regulars who leave comments on here are like them. For instance, Jamesfromphilly and Paul.

  • MimiLuvs

    Don’t feed the trolls.

  • MimiLuvs

    He is just here to agitate and irritate.

  • Ms. Information

    @ Mimi..you are so right…lol…I bow out..

  • ?!?

    Dude, how do I sound unattractive and bitter? A lot of men ARE going to those countries for sex tourism. I’m not insecure. Why would I be insecure? You think I’m insecure because I mentioned they were mulatto. The majority of African Americans are mixed. They look like many African American women who are multiracial. I feel sorry for them that that is the way they have to live life and make money. Or do you think I’m insecure because I called these vacations what they are and called the women prostitutes? I have been on YouTube and seen the “American black women suck” videos. I know that they are going over there for sex tourism, and these women are prostitutes. These men are still using these women for sex though.

    You do the same thing on just about every article like this. You try to silence people by calling them single, lonely, bitter, and unattractive. This is a site for young women. I am in my early twenties. People tell me that I’m pretty. I’m no Halle Berry, Gabrielle Union, or Tyra Banks, but my face does not make me feel unattractive or insecure. Maybe you can catch another commenter on here disagreeing with you, call her ugly, and actually hurt her self esteem.

    I already know what you will write back.

    “Oh you’re lying. You’re an ugly, overweight, overeducated, middle aged black woman with oow children you had with thugs who is jealous of these young women who will die alone.” Save yourself the typing. It doesn’t really matter if you believe what I look like. It doesn’t change the fact that those men are going there for sex tourism.

    @EMS – Yes. I agree. I just think many of these pro-submission people have redefined what submission is in a way that we don’t agree with. I have mentioned all up and down this comment section that these are things any woman in a partnership who has sense is already doing. People keep using the word submission. To me, it is an obvious way to make women look inferior and men superior which is why I don’t like the word.

    But some pro-submission people actually have mentioned that it’s more about letting the husband make major decisions, not emasculating him, nurturing him and supporting his choices. Many of us anti-submission people have mentioned that this is necessary in a relationship, so all of this submission disagreement we are having is really about people having different meanings for submission. Do they really think we are so stupid and overbearing that we will go around emasculating our partners and at the same time have no clue why the relationship doesn’t work? I guess so. Most women with sense know men don’t like that kind of stuff. Any woman in a good relationship doesn’t do that crap. I mean we’ve all heard Bobby Womack telling em why they’re lonely. We’ve seen the movies where the girl stops her nagging and both are happier in the end. BW are out here buying all these relationship books too. Do you think Steve Harvey is teling them to act independent and bossy? Nope. I bet he told them to submit too. You better believe there are some desperate women out there trying to get there submission on. We get it! Dang! We know neck rolling and chanting about education and independence does not make a relationship work. There are lots of women who get that. Obviously there are some BW who are headstrong and independent, but they don’t speak for the rest of us.

    The women on this comment section are saying they have no problem with letting a man make decisions and supporting him. They said that they simply don’t want to be seen as inferior and ordered about like a child. They agreed with the men that they author interviewed. I don’t know why these “see that’s why you’re lonely black women” people came on here and twisted our words around. The only thing the people on this comment section are arguing about is what submission means.

  • S.O.B

    I’m an atheist too. I guess we’ll never know the happiness of a ‘true’ marriage and the peace and happiness submission supposedly gives us as women. Miss me with that mess,

  • chiomzie

    everything you have just said & explained sounds like compromise. which i agree with

  • beks

    hey i can take critique! i have two jobs, an internship and a full class load…no time for proofreding (that was for you). so thanks for the kindness in pointing out my mistake. we can all grow…

  • beks

    glad to hear from you. could you elaborate on exactly in what ways you do submit? i don’t mean respecting him, thats natural and what most of us do already, but like in what ways yield (dictionary definition) to him??? so curious because this seems to be the heart of women being uncomfortable with the yielding…. thanks!

  • beks

    (attempt #2 to post) hey i can take critique! i have two jobs, an internship and a full class load…no time for proofreding (that was for you). so thanks for the kindness (sarcasm alert) in pointing out my mistake/s(there were many more). we can all grow…

  • Chrissy

    This topic is one that gets talked about a lot to the point of redundancy but I wanted to say this….. Look at the prefix sub and words with sub at the beginning. Subpar, subservient, submerge, subjugate, etc. What do they all have in common? They all mean under, less, or below.

    I think it is also telling people say you submit to a boss or a police officer…..lol. That speaks volumes to how the person sees a wife and a husband. Think about it, if you get pulled over and you refuse to give the police officer your license and registration I’m sure you can be arrested. Dont even think about driving off that could be your life. So if a wife does not submit I wonder what her punishment is supposed to be…. Very telling indeed.

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    @Ms. Information, you need to sit down now. I never said “all” BW in any of my comments, but of course to make your argument sound, you have to manipulate mines instead of honest debate.
    #1 I do not check or approach BW in general. The good ones (pleasant, chaste, in shape) are in the minority. The bigger crime here is that they DO NOT DIFFERENTIATE themselves from all the bums that are ABW (80% of them.) At least you can DIFFERENTIATE BM & put them in categories and have your pick. It is much harder to do that with BW.
    Non-BW who are not into feminist culture yet are much easier to deal with & understand gender roles very well.
    #2 I am not looking to build a harem. And If I meet a good sister rather pass her to a good BM, and give her a chance to walk.

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    @DT

    Nature is very cruel to those who don’t see the writing on the wall…

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    @The Magister Veritatis

    How have you been?
    Where Have you been?
    When are we gonna see some new posts?

  • SHELL

    @?1?

    I’m not acting like nothing, im simply expressing my own opinion because I am a grown up.
    CLEARLY, our definitions on submission are different. You seem to have a problem respecting other peoples opinions. I can say/type what I want and feel. I feel like a lot of your comments are ignorant and argumentative..But, I didnt come on here and tell you “how your acting..”
    .Someone asked to hear from the married women, and I am a married woman who choose to answer….speaking about MY marriage and how it functions…What about your marriage? How is that going?

    You can answer or take several seats.

  • Ms. Information

    That was close to incoherent…but the fact remains that you have scathing things that you believe about black women but you find yourself here of all places (go figure), go get counseling so you can get though those feelings of hate towards your mom.

  • http://gravatar.com/templet00 templet00

    Not to mention, many 21st century men are ill-equipped to lead toy soldiers let alone a wife & family. A man who can’t even lead himself to a pharmacy to buy condoms to protect himself from creating a life that he has no intention of staying around to raise, has no business demanding submission from anyone.

  • http://gravatar.com/templet00 templet00

    Too many people spend their time on propaganda websites & not enough time actually reading books & learning. You are one of those. Now you SIT DOWN. . .& read a book.
    Come back when you have actually learned something. Also, find a map & learn to read it, find a pharmacy & buy a ton of condoms.

  • http://gravatar.com/templet00 templet00

    It’s not a woman’s job to ALLOW a man to be a man. A man must be equipped to be the provider, sacrificer & leader of a family. As others have stated, it is very crazy to be submissive to a man who is not prepared to be the head of a family unit. For example an immature, insecure, angry man CANNOT lead a family. He is not healthy. When a man is prepared to lead, no woman can take that from him.
    Many of the men who are so obsessed with a woman’s submission are seriously unprepared to lead. They have a hard-on about the subject submission because they are insecure.

  • ?!?

    @SMH – Well yes they are exotic because they speak Spanish and have a different culture. I said mulatto because I have seen comments by many men talking about all the Halle Berries and mixed women over there. So I get the impression that men go over there looking for Halle Berries not Gabrielle Unions.

    I am multiracial and light skinned like many African American women, so no I am not jealous of their genetic makeup. It’s probably similar to mine. I brought up their mixed genetic makeup because that is probably what attracts some of these colorstruck men to the women there. If it’s not you and your buddies, fine. I just know there are colorstruck men out there going to these countries for mixed women.

    I don’t think I said anything about STDs. I was also not trying to put the prostitutes down. I don’t know where you got that. Many are doing what they have to do to survive and there are less opportunities in the D.R. than here. I am not going to make fun of someone down on there luck.

    If your friends are married to lovely Dominican women, good for them. I am not saying all Dominican women are prostitutes. I have nothing against Dominican women whether they be mulatto, full black, or whatever, but I am not talking about those types of relationships. I am specifically talking about prostitutes and sex tourism. Your buddy motrennaisance mentioned his “trashy Dominican chica” which is why we were talking about the nasty practice of sex tourism.

    Well I still think submission is dishing out commands. Submission to me is make me a sandwich, fix me a drink, have sex with me when I want it, let me have my way. Most women aren’t going to like doing all of that in the name of love. I think a woman would get resentful towards a man who claims that he loves her treating her like a servant. I would. Housewives of the 50s were doing that because of money. Their husbands put a roof over their head and food on the table. Prostitutes obviously do it. Basically a woman will not act like a slave I think without reciprocity most likely financial reciprocity. I’m generalizing. Obviously there are women who will slave around the house because they are whipped and in love or whatever. I guess they think they are getting emotional reciprocity.

  • http://gravatar.com/templet00 templet00

    “With that in mind, its important who you choose as a husband.”

    This can’t be stressed enough, not just in reference to submission, but in every way. Choosing the right man is of utmost importance.

  • African Mami

    *I may get stoned for talking to you, looool! BUT

    @ montrenaissance,

    Although I don’t agree with your opinion, errrm I just wanted to say thank you for the Prof Mentu link. Oh mi goosh, that post was HILARIOUS!! Bookmarked the blog.

    -Carry on.

  • http://gravatar.com/templet00 templet00

    Again, the problem with the black community is not SUBMISSION. It much more complex than that. As a matter of fact, I would say that the 80% out-of-wedlock statistic is due to black women being submissive. Submissive to the ideology that they should not hold themselves & black men to higher standards. Standards such as stable marriage before children.

    Also, the culprit is not pride, it’s FALSE PRIDE.

  • ?!?

    @SHELL – You specifically said

    “A lot of you go to work everyday and make sure your in your chair at the right time, do what you boss says with a smile, isn’t that submission??
    When a police officer tells you to pull over and says license and registration with out a please or thank you and you hand it over isn’t that submission??
    But, your black man that goes to work every day and helps to provide for the family doesn’t get that same respect….Interesting…”

    As I said, many of us here have also agreed that these things you all think are part of submission are necessary in a relationship. You wrote this as if to say we still didn’t get it. I said we are actually agreeing about many important things to do in a relationship but disagreeing about what submission means.

    I did not mean to be argumentative with you, and I don’t think my comments are ignorant. I think at the time I wrote the comment I was just upset because people were making it seem like we were some prideful combative women that were unwilling to try to make a relationship work. My wording may have come off as ill-tempered because of that, but I just feel like people are making it seem like we are refusing to try to be good partners and we are too wrapped up in our pride and that is far from the truth. We just have different opinions about what submission means. Well, I’m sorry if you felt my comment was offensive or argumentative.

  • chan

    @ms. Information

    Why are you always talking?

  • chan

    Why do so many black men suck? why? What the hell is wrong with you all?

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    @Templet00 Huh? Do you know me personally?

    LOL… on “enough time actually reading books & learning.”

    I’ll get to those feminist theory books soon enough. But it is sad that women are poor at summing up the book that they read.

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    @Ms. Information Funny, me & mom just had dinner, laughing about the gunman who handled is business at the Empire State Building

  • http://gravatar.com/motrenaissance motrenaissance

    I see you @African Mami. Blogging is a alternative universe like NYC. I am happy to share comedic gold. This ish I am about to share with you might just start a whole new thread.

    Mentu’s First Law of Dickatry: You can’t TELL a woman anything, but you sure as hell can make her FEEL it.

    Mentu’s Second Law of Dickatry: When you argue with a woman, you’ll either be imparting wisdom to someone too DUMB to understand it, too SOLIPSISTIC to receive it, too EMOTIONAL to practice it, too BITCHY to deserve it, too UGLY to be worth it, or a combination thereof.

    Mentu’s third law of Dickatry: Promiscuity increases a man’s ABILITY to commit, but reduces his WILLINGNESS. Promiscuity increases a woman’s WILLINGNESS to commit, but REDUCES her ability. An UNwilling but able man has options; an UNable but willing woman does not.

    Mentu’s Fourth Law of Dickatry: Her sexual history is like her credit history. Past performance does not always predict future performance, but it does predict risk. Betas are the Payday Cash Advance institutions of the marriage market for sluts who can’t get financed through the First Bank of Alpha

    Mentu’s Fifth Law of Dickatry: An extensive sexual history does not show women WHO they are and WHAT they want; it shows WHAT they are and WHO they want. Oblige them.

  • African Mami

    You know to be honest, although what you write sometimes has me at what the fuggers, other times , I silently dig your opinions even though they seem to tip more on the ALPHAristic side.All the same, it keeps the ladies on here, on their tippy toes, like them ballet dancers. I’ll pray that you get more love….loool!!

    Tell Mentu to stop sippin that sizzzzrrrruppp it messing him up!!

  • Really??!!

    Black women submit to white standards of beauty everyday but you can’t submit to a black man who is taking care of his family and handling business? WTF!

  • http://tontonmichel.tumblr.com/ Tonton Michel

    Lol, that was a low blow……..

  • SJM

    @Chrissy, I couldn’t agree with you more. I don’t understand why people use the analogy of boss/employee when talking about headship/submission in the marriage relationship – it is NOT the same. They think they are making a valid point but they just discredit themselves.

  • http://gravatar.com/jeanettemoore SJM

    “ots of people with successful marriages have talked about why their marriages work. They never mention submission.”

    This is true. My parents have been married for over 40 years and they can give you MANY reasons why their marraige works. Contrary to what these women believe it is not their responsibility to make their marriage works. In other words, holding up a marraige is not the woman’s responsibility alone.

    You make so many valid points that I don’t know where to start, but I’ll just say that I am tired of the tired argument that many marriages worked back in the dayz b/c women knew their roles. As you stated, many of those married women were not happy. Yes, many were probably powerless, stayed for the “children’s sake”, or didn’t leave because of the social stigma divorce would bring, etc. but those marriages did not work because the women were in happily submitted relationships to their husbands.

  • SHelly

    I did not write that I think black women are not deserving of love. Of course we are. I think the reasons you mention for why our families are messed up are very valid, but without both women and men having the right attitude, how do you expect them to maintain a happy marriage and demonstrate a healthy relationship to their children? I do not think we should go back to times when women were powerless. Look at these comments…most of the women who say they are married advocate for submitting to our husbands. If you look at their testimonies, they do not seem powerless. Many are working women who have discovered that there is a power in submitting. And they say they are happy. So there is another way to make this marriage thing work. I won’t try to convince everyone to see things the way I do, but I truly believe if we ever begin to build strong families, it will be from women rejecting men who are not worthy of submitting to, and allowing a real man to be a man.

  • Shelly

    I am not religious, but I look to women who have sucessful relationships for advice regarding dating and marriage. I just look at what seems like it works. From what i’ve observed, the independent women thing seems to not be working.

  • http://gravatar.com/jeanettemoore SJM

    It’s pride. Most of the women on here who say they submit to their husbands do so maybe <=5% of the time. The other 95%, their husbands are doing the submitting. So, yeah, I would say I was a submissive wife too in that case. Whatever.

  • http://gravatar.com/jeanettemoore Shaye

    True, healthy submission comes naturally, simply because you trust the guidance of your spouse. And it GOES BOTH WAYS.

    If you can’t trust the judgement of your spouse you’ve picked that wrong one

    @Humanist – this is so true. Men and women need to choose someone they are able to submit to and whose judgment they can trust – not just the women. Often times I hear that a woman shouldn’t be with a man she can’t submit to but it goes both ways.

    Let me be clear that my submission is to God #1. Many women who say they are submissive to their husbands leave God out of the equation. When you do this you are making your husband a mini god in your household, which then becomes idolatry. Many of these “submissive” women (some on this site) will probably kill over if their husbands left them because they are so dependent upon them for their happiness – submitting out of fear to keep the man. Their relationship with their husbands define who they are (which is probably why married in the first place) not their relationship with God. This is very dangerous.

  • paul

    Bwoy if I was submission beggar I’d go about it in some way that didn’t make me look as weak as the beta males advocating it in this discussion.

    I’d sell it as something that would be a COLLECTIVE benefit to the BC, not just me PERSONALLY.

    I’d also propose a role for myself that went beyond being the mere boss of an individual woman.

    I’d offer MY services as a PROTECTER of ALL black children and black women and argue that submission is as an indispendable feature of the support system I required to -

    WAGE WAR AGAINST WHITEY.

    That my job as a warrior was on the frontline of the war, PROTECTING my family and COMMUNITY against all threats to our welfare, while “my woman’s” job was on the backline keeping the homes fires burning and the family together.

    But these clowns aint smart enough to spin it even as shallowly as that.

    Why?

    because they’re not tryna protect our women and children. Proof of that is in the scornful regard they have for both.

    These lames offer no leadership in the black community, no solutions to any of the ills that plague our people, no PLAN, no vision. All they know and care about is having some woman submit to them, because they say they’re a man.

    Well, let me remind you clowns that a core component of the “submission contract” is protecting women and children and the COMMUNITY borders.

    That’s what I see non-black men doing – resolutely defending their families and communities from invasion by malevolent and predatory forces. That might explain why you don’t see them having submission quarrels with their women folk

    every damn day.

    But who do you fight?

    You fight black women on internet over submission and lick white men’s boots at the office.

    You are an emasculated half man. Lowest of the low in the male food chain. A limping, castrated wannabe who thinks he can walk tall if he stands on a woman’s back.

    B itch boy!

    You truly sint s hit.

    Makes me sick to my bones that I have to share the name black man with a creature like you.

    All you become when you submit to a submission beggar is a subordinate to a spineless half man. A castrated male who himself lives in bended over submission to white male power and likes it.

    That b itch has got more estrogen running through his veins than you.

    If you’re okay being submitted to something like that then submission away, but you need to shut your weak mouf too.

    kiss teet.

  • Leonard Small

    It is unfortunate that you chose not to address my points, because I welcome such efforts. On the other hand, please forgive me, but I am disinclined to address your conclusory statements.

    However, you made the following request, “why didn’t you and your fellow men rise to the occasion of leadership[?]” I don’t mean to be rude and correct me if I am wrong, but leadership requires submission. And since most Colored women are uncomfortable with said concept (as reflected in the above article, comments includes therewith, and the intellectual culture of the Colored community) the leadership that you suggest currently is unavailable, because there are not enough individuals willing to submit to said leadership or competent enough to appreciate its need.

    Again, I don’t mean to be rude and I understand that this comment may seem somewhat coarse, but it is logically sound and I stand by my prior assertions.

    Carry on.

  • Leonard Small

    Thank you for being a voice of reason amongst this sea of emotions

  • Leonard Small

    Preach! The illusion of the infallible Colored woman is what must be addressed at some point in the future. They’ve been in charge and look at the current condition of the community under their tutelage. They said that they wanted to be independent, right? The question is, “can be afford their independence much longer?”

  • Leonard Small

    Expand on that point, please.

  • Leonard Small

    I agree, see above.

  • Leonard Small

    Bible thumping is ALWAYS a poor substitute for the type of problem solving that this topic requires.

    The answers arguable are not able to be located using a religious orientation.

    Better, yet, it would be sound advice for an American Colored guy to look abroad for Colored women of other cultures, the domestic market leaves much to be desired from the looks of those who comment here.

    FYI — I have no problems meeting and keeping a woman. I am highly educated (JD top 10 law school), work for the right company (Fortune 500), am easy on the eye (6’3″ athletic build), and am highly articulant.

  • Leonard Small

    But she wasn’t in the gym with Kobe. What is the evidentury value of your statement? I don’t know Kobe or his situation.

  • Leonard Small

    I don’t mean to be rude, but if she does not submit, then he will/should not commit. A man gives up a lot when he commits to one woman, he should be receiving consideration of equal value in return. If he does not, said man arguably has been bamboozled.

  • Mademoiselle

    What all does he give up? Also, what is he giving up that she isn’t also giving up? (these are genuine questions)

  • Mimi

    Sir:

    The word is spelled e-v-i-d-e-n-t-i-a-r-y. One can appreciate a smart brother, but please if you are going to attempt to talk down to someone, please check your spelling. I believe the point of Nix’s statement regarding Vanessa Bryant was to illustrate the mentality of some (but not all) men that insist on submission. Some men demand submission from a woman and expect her to take a subordinate role without truly respecting the submission, or respecting the subordination. What was the point of your last statement? Black women can’t seem to win even if they lose. The Vanessa Kobe reference illustrates the disregard some men, of any race, have of any women. Women who stay at home make it possible for men to go out and succeed, but will be quickly reminded that they didn’t earn any of the money when things go south. I believe that this is one of the many reasons so many women have such a hard time with submission – the potential for abuse by those who would play the role of petty tyrant rather than servant leader.

  • SJM

    @ Paul, headship in marriage is just that – PROTECTION; however, many men believe that it is a right for them to have their way or some sort of pride thing. In addition, many women are suckered in to this ridiculous way of thinking as well. Any man who does what he is supposed to do for his family does so because he loves them and his greatest reward is seeing them healthy and happy, but I think it is going to take a life time to turn this around.

  • grateful

    “Many of these “submissive” women (some on this site) will probably kill over if their husbands left them because they are so dependent upon them for their happiness – submitting out of fear to keep the man.”

    i think the term you were going for was ‘keel’ instead of ‘kill’. anyway,i take it you know these women personally that you can make this deduction, or are you just assuming?
    the premise might be correct but the conclusion you just jumped to does your message a great disservice.

  • CB

    Last time I checked we weren’t called Colored anymore.

  • paul

    @smh

    “headship in marriage is just that – PROTECTION

    Really, how so?

    I’d say it’s just an unhealthy domestic arrangement between two damaged fools.

    Unless you can explain how your woman’s submission to YOU is protecting her from exposure to all the harms, risks and traumatizing experiences that are part and parcel of black life under a white supremacist system

    If your goal is the protection of your woman then surely you’d be more successful in that task if you joined forces with other black men to assert yourself against the entities that threaten harm to her.

    But rather than assert ourselves against our enemies (of whom black men have many) some of us are content to assert our “dominance” over women.

    Uh uh – no sir

    not this nigger.

    Demanding a woman’s submission is, for me, the ultimate expression of powerlessness and capitulation.

    Can’t be boss nowhere but at home, can’t be strong over no one but a woman.

    If that aint you -

    then what do YOU propose we do to make our communities and the world beyond them SAFER for black children, black women and OURSELVES?

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  • http://gravatar.com/jeanettemoore SJM

    @Paul, I’m sorry I ever responded to an angry fool. My bad.

  • MLHThinking

    Attended spiritual pre-marital counseling with my Fiancee. The very kind and respectful minister immediately went to scripture about obey and submission, asked my opinion and explained “obey and submission” as a form of respect that required communication and compromise and partnership. I agreed with the interpretation and so I thought my fiancee did also. The minister also explained to my Fiancee that a loving wife was a beautiful gift from God and should be treated with respect, etc. The conversation was very nuanced and more complex than I expected. HOWEVER, the very next night my Fiancee disappeared for about 12 hours without communication until the next morning. WE had a 3 hour conversation when he deemed to show up. Obviously he did not attend the “same” pre-marital counseling that I did. Needless to say, he is now the ex-Fiancee. Maybe we should throw out the word submission and start using the words compromise, partnership, mutual respect.

  • http://gravatar.com/jeanettemoore jeanettemoore

    @grateful, I hope you are well today. I see you are one of those women I am speaking of or else you wouldn’t take my message so personally. Get over it already, it’s really not that serious.

  • Keke

    My marriage is a partnership, meaning that we foster strength because of the other. There are some things that he is great at. I happily take advantage of these strengths by letting him lead in these areas. Some things I’m great at. At that point, he will let me take the lead. And sometimes, life throws us some crazy things and we approach these experiences TOGETHER and come up with viable plans steeped in compromise, respect and love. The worse thing any person can do, whether male or female is to follow someone blindly. Sometimes even the wisest person can do foolish things. So it’s in our best interests to have someone say, “Um….yeah. That might not be a great idea.” My hubby lets me know that and I tell him that as well. But we don’t do it to shame each other, we do it because when you love someone, you never want to see them fail or fall in the face of their enemies. You become their champion, their advisor, their soldier. You fight for their dreams just like they would fight for yours. That is not submission. That is reciprocity.

  • http://www.facebook.com/InthenameoftheRose Chris Allen

    How about we drop the whole “Shades of Submission” thing and call it by something else: Partnership.

    Partners bring their best to the game, and help cover for each other’s weak spots. It’s not “Who’s in charge?”, it’s “Who handles what best?”… and even that is subject to change. It can also be one partner learning new knowledge, skills, and abilities from the other, and vice versa. Sometimes it’s “Who does this best?”; sometimes it’s “Who would rather take care of this?” and sometimes it’s “Who’s got free hands?”

    It’s a combination of compatibility and compromise, because *everyone* has at least a few things they simply canNOT compromise on and still be themselves… so you find someone who has a similar “I can’t change on this list,” then you work out compromises on everything else. That list is always “What’s most important to me.” It might include Honesty, Compassion, Laughter, Integrity, Responsibility, Silliness—any number of things. The point is, you figure out what *your* list is, the things you hold most important in Life—then you try to learn what *their* list is, and see if it matches closely enough.

    If it does, then with some work (sometimes a LOT), you can usually find compromises for anything else… but compromises have to be between partners to be fair: if one person is always the leader/master/one in control, and the other is always the subordinate/servant, then the only one doing the compromising is the latter.

    It’s rather like playing doubles in tennis: sometimes one of you is at the front of the court, and one at the back; sometimes it’s reversed; and sometimes you’re both running after the ball in the middle—but the point is, you work as a TEAM. That’s what Partners DO. :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/InthenameoftheRose Chris Allen

    How about we drop the whole “Shades of Submission” thing and call it by something else: Partnership.

    Partners bring their best to the game, and help cover for each other’s weak spots. It’s not “Who’s in charge?”, it’s “Who handles what best?”… and even that is subject to change. It can also be one partner learning new knowledge, skills, and abilities from the other, and vice versa. Sometimes it’s “Who does this best?”; sometimes it’s “Who would rather take care of this?” and sometimes it’s “Who’s got free hands?”

    It’s a combination of compatibility and compromise, because *everyone* has at least a few things they simply canNOT compromise on and still be themselves… so you find someone who has a similar “I can’t change on this list,” then you work out compromises on everything else. That list is always “What’s most important to me.” It might include Honesty, Compassion, Laughter, Integrity, Responsibility, Silliness—any number of things. The point is, you figure out what *your* list is, the things you hold most important in Life—then you try to learn what *their* list is, and see if it matches closely enough.

    If it does, then with some work (sometimes a LOT), you can usually find compromises for anything else… but compromises have to be between partners to be fair: if one person is always the leader/master/one in control, and the other is always the subordinate/servant, then the only one doing the compromising is the latter.

    It’s rather like playing doubles in tennis: sometimes one of you is at the front of the court, and one at the back; sometimes it’s reversed; and sometimes you’re both running after the ball in the middle—but the point is, you work as a TEAM. That’s what Partners DO. :)

    And unless your marriage consists of a whole bunch of football players, I’m not seeing the need for a “Captain.” Marriage is much more like doubles in tennis—and they don’t *have* Captains, just Partners.

    As to the whole “You women submit to your boss and to the police”—adding to the wonderful comments above that point out the implied punishment aspect to those relationships, have you folks who are using this argument stopped to think: Doesn’t a MAN submit to his boss and to the police also? LOL It’s not a good analogy at all.

    I’ve been very happily married for 17 years, and my husband and I are Partners. We share cooking because he enjoys it, and I don’t like doing it 100% of the time. Same for dishes. Most of the time he does his laundry (he folds better!), and I do mine and our son’s… but sometimes I do his, and he does mine and/or our son’s clothes. I take out the trash as much or more than he does. He knows more about some of the household fixer-upper stuff, but I tend to do better at a lot of it because he gets impatient and I’m determined to get it right the first time (so we don’t have to do it again), so I’m more detail and “do it step by step, and think it through first before you start” than he is.

    One last point: I’ve not heard one person here talk about the burden these perceptions put upon *men*… and they get just as hampered, in some ways, as women do by these social conventions. Men are still sometimes told “Nurturing is a woman’s job,” or “Cooking and cleaning are women’s work!” B.S. Work is work, and love is love, and when it comes to protection, I’ll fight by his side just like he’ll fight by mine.

    And yes, you CAN have a marriage withOUT a “Head of Household”—it’s called Teamwork, and it actually does work. We share decisions. We work together. It’s not about “Who’s in Charge,” it’s about “Who wants to do what, who has the best gifts to do what, and most often, who’s got free hands.”

    As to that guy in the Aurora theater who ran out on his girlfriend and her two kids, I can understand panic—but to me, it’s not about “He should’ve stayed to protect her,” it’s about “He should’ve stayed to help *her* protect those *kids*, as in *both* of them protecting the little ones. Strangers did it for other people’s kids there… it doesn’t matter if it’s your kid or not; protecting kids is the right thing to do.

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  • paul

    @smh

    Is that your final answer?

    It matches the one we predicted you’d offer –

    “these lames offer no leadership in the black community, no solutions to any of the ills that plague our people, no PLAN, no vision. All they know and care about is having some woman submit to them because they say they’re a man.”

  • student

    I feel like too many men, particularly the guy who wrote the cartoon, confuse submission with dependence. I may feel like catering to my boyfriend when we go out on dates, but I will leave if he were to ever ask me to abandon my support network or job for his ego.

  • LMO85

    WOW. What a refreshing response to this ridiculous discussion, from a happily long-time married woman. Go figure. Thank you sista!

  • Leonard Smalls

    @ templet00 that is arguably an erroneous conclusory statement in light of the following:

    i) in America, the woman gets to decide conception issues;

    ii) in America, Colored women use colorable tactics, such as getting pregnant, as a way to control the orientation of romantic relationships;

    iii) in America, the majority of Colored women of child bearing age prefer a man with “swag” (i.e. “ruff neck”, “gangsta” or “athlete”) and are not particulary fond of nerds (i.e. educated men), unfortunately, these “men” are not good leaders; and

    iv) observing the state of Colored familiies under the tutelatge of Colored women begs the question, “how much of this can the community continue to endure?”

  • Monique

    And your husband probably holds your purse, pushes the stroller and walks behind you.
    There is nothing wrong with a woman wanting a man to take the lead and be the head and covering of the family. Submission is not about punishment or control. Every ones marriage is different. don’t throw shade on those who don’t want a pocketbook holding man. submitting is not about being some type of broken house slave. my man cooks, clean, folds clothes, tucks the kids in bed, cares for me when im sick, and yet i submit to him because he is the man….I know that I want the type of man that is going to jump into action and take control of a situation when there is an emergency, not looking around to me waiting for me to tell him or suggest what he should do. and YES a man is supposed to provide and protect….

    i dont want a man who is gonna run away from a situation because “WE” both can protect the kids….wth??

  • paul

    So inclusion, since we can’t find anyone with the sense to explain how submission -

    1) benefits black women
    2) benefits the black community

    ! think we can retire the submission debate.

    Put it to rest as just another one of those NON-issue “controversies” – like interacial dating, beauty standards et al – that is only talked about in the lowbrow quarters of the black online community.

    Why?

    because submission and IR dating and beauty standards is the only s hit they “know” to talk about.

    But turn it up a cerebral notch or two on em and they foul a afoul of their own ignorance and lack of cultivation, even on these trashy topics.

    But I could be wrong, maybe there’s someone out there who has such a passion for this topic (and brains to match) that he or she could wipe the floor with yours truly.

    Then bring it – I beg you.

    LMAO!

  • E

    Thank God. I, too, am happily married. All these submission beggar wives make me sad for women. My husband and I are partners. I am not a child and I submit to no one. My parents were married for 17 years until my mothers death and although they were more traditional than we are, they, too were partners.

  • Mademoiselle

    Can someone please explain to me what exactly falls under the ACT of submitting? Am I supposed to believe cooking, cleaning, and raising kids all fall under the category of submitting? Is there something more to it than just how the chores/responsibilities are split between husband and wife, because I’m missing the big picture? What specific acts/duties are we arguing about here?

  • MimiLuvs

    Just curious… And anybody can answer. What is the role “head of the household”? What are the responsibilities?

  • dee

    This is where most men get it wrong. Deep down I believe a woman will welcome the opportunity to submit to her man, including myself. Where the problems start is that 1) Men want to compare today’s woman to the woman from “back in the day” well I got a news alert…your not dealing with women from back in the day. Society has evolved and so has the woman and her role in it. We own our own businesses, are raising families, planning retirements, managing successful social and professional lives, keeping it sexy the whole time and are basically already doing it for ourselves. So you cannot come at us like you would someone from back in the day. Women’s roles in society have changed so a man’s mindset has to change as well. Its called evolving 2) men are coming into the situation not even being able to handle their own lives. For example, so what you can’t cook or you don’t have time to clean your home, but are you starving in a filthy home looking for a “submissive” woman to take care of it, or are you making it happen by hiring a maid and chef or using a cookbook? Men need to show women that they have a track record of making good decisions with good results. 3) Men are not putting in the work it takes to gain the trust of women or showing them that they come from a place of love and are putting them first. I need to make sure my needs are met so if your not doing it as my man then that means I have to make it happen for myself which takes my attention off of you. Make me understand that I am a priority for you. Basically what are you doing for me to want to be submissive to you? Hell yeah I want a man that can take the pressure off of me so that I can reap the benefits, I will be all yours whenever and wherever, but until i can trust your not going to screw my ‘ish’ up by making selfish and unresponsible decisions you are not going to get me…just ain’t gonna happen. For me to submit to a man he has to have power and I cant give that to him. A man has to have power and he has to have the confidence and the ability to use it appropriately. Unfortunately most men don’t know how to do that. Women are seasoned in exerting their power in society on a daily basis because it is essential to our survival, so a man has to give me reason to not feel like I have to continue to do that at home, and just becuase I am a woman and he is a man is simply not enough of a reason. In fact most men can’t even give you a definition of what being submissive means. And you still cant understand why I am not submissive to you….really?

  • Monique

    This the the law and order of things….Especailly for all of you so called Christians who “Dont Submit to anyone”

    Eph 5: 21-33

    21 and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. 22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; 26 that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body. 31 For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh. 32 This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each individual among you also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see to it that she respect her husband.

  • Monique

    so for all of you that go to church on Sunday and listen to Pastor…Take a seat or read your bible.

  • Ida Slapter

    Yes Yes Yes.

    This is how any healthy relationship should run.

  • E

    I’ve read many of these comments and agree with some and not with others, I do wish though, that we in this country and perhaps the world could respect other’s differences of opinions without insulting or denigrating each other. But of the comments, @dee made comments which more closely mirror my own. I also believe the bigger issue is that women would have no problem submitting to me if they feel the man has the capacity to be a leader. And I’m sorry, but just the fact of having male genitalia does not make one a great leader or great head of household. Additionally, if the assumption is that women should submit to men to ensure household harmony, how does that equate in the homosexual household. And no, I’m not a lesbian, though I have no problem with being gay and will go as far as to say I believe some people in homosexual relationships were born gay. But, I also believe some people in homosexual relationships are not gay. Anyway, I’ve heard comments that women of racial/ethnic groups than black women have no problem submitting. I believe this is untrue. I don’t have any statistics to support this, it just is my opinion and observation. I work for a federal law enforcement agency and from discussions I have had with some of them, mostly male and white, and all of whom are Supervisory Special Agents providing leadership to a group of Special Agents at many levels from unit/squad to executives responsible for entire branches, I have come away with the idea that not all white women (for instance) are submissive and not all white men want submissive women. I’ve also heard that white women never say they don’t need a man. I had a conversation one evening with three other women, all white. Now I will admit I wasn’t fully attentive the entire time and didn’t actually hear the one woman say she did not need a man, what I heard was the response of one of the other women. The other woman’s response was, “We desire a man and because we have the desire, it becomes a need.” And I said, “You don’t have a problem letting a man take charge, you just don’t want a man to try to control you.” And that woman responded, “right”. Before the comment she made that I missed, she had told a story of how she met a guy and they hit it off quite well. She is very physically fit (as are many in agency in that career path, they have to be fit, and have either annual or biannual “fit tests”. This woman exudes confidence in her stature within the agency as well as her femininity. But she met this guy and after dating some time they decided to take a vacation to France. She said prior to leaving she liked his take charge attitude and she seemed he was just that, a take charge kind of guy. Anyway, so they go to Paris and things were fine. Afterwards, they went to another area of France and when they were en route, he made a comment that because his french was better than her’s, she should let him do most of the talking and handle everything. She said it was at this point she realized he was not a take charge guy, but a controlling guy. She said she ended things when she returned to the U.S. The other story I’ll tell is of a white guy, also a Supervisory Special Agent. I known he is Catholic, and I thought he would be down with the notion of submission. But it was just the opposite, what he said is that he and his current wife are very suited for each other and they respect each other’s opinion. He said they have more of an equal marriage where if they don’t agree on something, they don’t do it. He said unlike his first wife, who could not be reasoned with, he and his current wife work through issues. The reason I referenced these stories is that I believe, as someone else posted here, everyone is an individual. You can not look at any one person (any race or gender) and fully determine just from their looks, what their personal philosophy is. Love, respect and compromise should be a part of any relationship. But if you are a man and based on your own personal ideals about submission, you want a submissive partner, find one who shares your vision and ideals. Don’t try to change a woman to fit your ideals. And the same goes for women. Finally, I will address a couple more issues, one is that not all black women have “attitudes” and there are some white women who do have “attitudes”. The other thing I’ll address is the statement women sometimes make in saying, “I don’t need a man.” Mostly when women make that statement they mean it as a caveat. They mean they don’t need a man who is disrespectful, or abusive, or unfaithful, etc. The women only mean they don’t need just any man, but they need a man who is respectful, non-abusive, faithful, etc. Because most of those who women say they don’t need a man (myself included) would not make that statement if they met a man who they were compatible with.

  • http://gravatar.com/jeanettemoore SJM

    @ SMH, you have to excuse paul because he is not all there in the head. He kept using your moniker thinking he was responding to me. Just plain ditzy.

  • OMG_IM_SPAZZING_OUT

    @SMH – I mentioned that they were mixed in my comment. You said they were exotic because they have something that can’t be found in women here. Please tell me what is exotic about a mixed woman? There are millions of them here in the US. You said they have some exotic quality. It couldn’t possibly be that they are mixed because that is not rare. I said they are exotic because they are foreign. I don’t know what them being mulatto has to do with being exotic. Do you never see mixed women in America? I see them all the time. Why do you think these women are exotic? It’s not because of their looks. It’s because they are foreign and have a different culture. Are Nigerian women exotic to you? They look very similar to other black women in America, but they are exotic because of their culture. Or maybe according to your thinking, Nigerian women aren’t exotic because they aren’t mixed lol.

    When did I spazz out at you? On the basketball player article? There was no “spazzing out.” I said your comment was stupid and your blame the women stance was pathetic. That is much tamer than what you go around doing. I changed my name on that comment section before I even commented to you. Do you really think I change my name to avoid YOU? I have changed my name on this site several times. I don’t do it to spazz out on people. You don’t know who I am so I couldn’t give two craps less about what you think of me and see no point in trying to change my screen name to avoid you. We disagree on the majority of topics, so I don’t really care. Am I supposed to be scared that you might remember my previous comment on another article and continue calling me a moron? So I change my name to start afresh? But what I said there is similar to what I have said on this site many times before without spazzing out on anyone. You probably think this paragraph was incoherent since you think you’re so particularly bright lol.

    You’re such a predictable little drama queen. You try to insult people’s looks. Then you tell them they have daddy issues. Next you tell them that they are a future baby momma. Then you tell them that they will be forever single. No. Not just single. Fat and single. Then you tell them that they are unintelligent because they don’t agree with you. What the heck was incoherent about what I wrote? I wrote why I used the word mulatto didn’t I in plain English. There was nothing incoherent about what I wrote. In case your particular brand of brightness can’t understand what I wrote, let me break it down for you. I wrote mulatto because there are many men who go there because the women are mixed. Got it? YOU brought up that you knew men who were married to Dominican women. Can you not understand what you write yourself? I already explained why I wasn’t an insecure clown because of their looks. You want to believe that I am an insecure girl that is jealous of them because of their “exotic” looks. Whatever. That’s part of your whole “insult female commenter about her looks” routine. Even if I were insecure and looked like Mrs. Celie, that doesn’t change anything I said about the women being mixed and many of the men going there because of that!

    I have no idea why you have to resort to name calling and swearing when someone says something you don’t like. It’s so childish and immature. You are the one spazzing out on the commenters here on this site almost daily. There is barely an article that I’ve seen you comment on where someone disagrees with you that you don’t resort to name calling.

    You talk about being rational, but you are always the one getting emotional and on a site full of women lol.

  • Shalom

    What… like a woman doesn’t give up alot when she commits to one man…

  • Leonard Smalls

    It is quite unfortunate that Leonard has to review what may arguably be termed obvious, but he adds the following:

    i) men and woman are complements to each other, as compared to being “equal”, which is physically impossible and harboring such notions may very well reflect the abysmal state of the intellectual culture in contemporary Colored society (but I digress);

    ii) a man chooses who he will give his heart to (his source of power), while a woman chooses to whom she will give her heart (her source of power);

    iii) a man may have children for the rest of his adult life (barring medical issues) and relinquishes that ability when he chooses to settle down with ONE woman (this is a considerable loss to say the least);

    iv) a proper quid pro quo in this scenario would have an even exchange of the elements described in point (ii) above; and

    v) if a man gives a woman his heart and she chooses not to give him her WHOLE heart (i.e. submission), then said man arguably has not received comparable consideration for relinquishing his heart.

    Be not mislead, matter of the heart are complex and difficult to express completely. However, there are some boilerplate topics and elements that may be useful in said discussion.

    Carry on.

  • SJM

    “…some are listing of well he is a good provider, father, protector, etc. well he is being an ADULT in a relationship those aren’t perks but things you are suppose to look for in a mate these qualities does not require submission.”

    Very true indeed!

  • Pingback: Manning up and the Myth of Gender Roles « Do.Dream.Aisha

  • Odile

    Black men will soon have to seek out an entirely new species. Check out white women teaming up and outing Matthew Couloute Jr.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/web_of_deceit_INm6gF7rlDXuQbTzIPFWLN

    Wife turns against cyber-slammed ‘cad’
    By GARY BUISO
    August 19, 2012

    “I’ve been patient, forgiving, supportive, taken advantage of, used in his custody battle & used as a bank. Life catches up w/u.”

  • Kam

    As someone mentioned above if a man expects submission then he should submit to God first. Black churches are filled with women and few men. Why would God put a woman in a man’s care that doesn’t even love Christ?

  • Wow.

    BLACK WOMEN- Here is my question to you: Why do you feel that you are obligated to be with black men? Why do you feel that you have to build up the black community? Why is it so difficult for you to separate your ethnic identity from your needs as a woman? Why has the black community been so selfish as to make you choose? What if I suggested to you that it was already dead and there is just nothing you can do about it? You clearly do not receive reciprocity from black males on a wide scale, so why worry about doing anything with them? I challenge you to question your commitment to nationalism! You have no obligation to build ANYTHING or submit to ANYONE! You are being used as MULES. Before you dismiss me as a raging feminazi, please at least take 10 minutes to consider what I am saying. JUST 10 MINUTES! And then you don’t ever have to think about it again if you don’t want to but the next time you see black men bash or say something hurtful about black women, I hope you do. Where have black women NOT been willing to work with black men? Where have they NOT been there for them? Why do they feel so comfortable bashing you? What if what I am saying really is true? What if you are being gaslighted? You have been led to believe that all the ills that plague the black (un)community lie in a dysfunctional black womanhood. I am suggesting to you that this is a LIE and that you are being used as scapegoats for black men’s failure to actually lead anything. If you want to dismiss this and continue to be used then ok. But in all humility I ask you that before you do, you really do give what I am saying 10 minutes of honest thought. Peace.

  • Wow.

    Let me ask you a question: why do you follow and believe in the Bible? Whoever said it was the word of god? Is the Bible the ONLY reason that you believe that you have to “submit”? Where did the Bible come from anyway? Do you know what else the Bible says?

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

    “Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak”– 1 Corinthians 14:34).

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    “Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

    I suggest reconsidering your adherence to this book.

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