angry black couple

First there was a war on Christmas, then religion, and now this. According to Fox News, there is new war on the horizon, the war on men.

Over the weekend, Fox published an essay from Suzanne Venker–a Conservative social critic loved by the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Dr. James Dobson—which argued that men are being crushed by women who are taking up all of spots in college and the good jobs.

Venker cites a Pew Research study which states that 37 of women ages of 18 to 34 say that having a successful marriage is one of the most important things in life, while only 29 percent of men feel the same way. For Venker, this proves men are uninterested in getting married, and there’s one reason why: “Women aren’t women anymore.”

Venker explains:

To say gender relations have changed dramatically is an understatement. Ever since the sexual revolution, there has been a profound overhaul in the way men and women interact. Men haven’t changed much – they had no revolution that demanded it – but women have changed dramatically. 

In a nutshell, women are angry. They’re also defensive, though often unknowingly. That’s because they’ve been raised to think of men as the enemy. Armed with this new attitude, women pushed men off their pedestal (women had their own pedestal, but feminists convinced them otherwise) and climbed up to take what they were taught to believe was rightfully theirs.

Now the men have nowhere to go.

Venker goes on to blame feminism, and namely women’s trek from the kitchen to college campuses and the workforce for the decline in “good men.” She argues that men these days feel less manly and are less likely to marry because the influx of women into the workplace has “undermined [men’s] ability to become self-sufficient.” How? Competition.

Venker sums up her argument:  “Men want to love women, not compete with them. They want to provide for and protect their families – it’s in their DNA. But modern women won’t let them.”

Despite the dismal prospects Venker paints for men if women continue to make educational and career advances, she says that we women have the power to change things and help men feel like men again.

She explains: “Fortunately, there is good news: women have the power to turn everything around. All they have to do is surrender to their nature – their femininity – and let men surrender to theirs.”

What’s interesting about this article is not its ridiculousness, although it’s quite laughable indeed. But I found Venker’s perspective intriguing because her gripes about the feminism movement and women in the workplace completely overlook the fact that women of color have been working along side men for generations.

While white feminists were fighting for the option to go to work, women of color have been working for centuries. So the argument that the influx of women in the workplace is, alone, at fault for the declining marriage rates is problematic.

These days both men and women are waiting longer to get married. Unlike our foremothers, our economic stability as women is no longer tied to our marital status, so it makes sense that women would pursue other avenues before settling down.

But does our access to opportunities equal a war on men? Or is Venker infantilizing men by assuming they are so distraught by women in the workplace they now feel inadequate?

What do you think?

  • YeahRight2011

    Was this the case with minority women were working as nannies, cooks, and housekeepers to allow middle class (white) housewives to engage in their wifely duties? I’ve always wondered how white women could comfortable waxing nostalgic when we know white husbands’ access to stable employment and their wives ability to stay at home came at the expense of access for minority husbands, low wages accepted by minority wives, and time with their families?

  • CiCe

    So when is Venker going to quit her job, stop taking money for her articles and stay home so that her man can feel more manly and we don’t have to hear from her anymore?

  • K. Michel

    She’s kind of right, which in my opinion isn’t being right at all. The reason why marriage rates have been declining is because of this country’s recent shift from an industrial to a service industry. We don’t produce as much as we used to and because of that most “working class” men are out of jobs and out of the loop. So, it’s not so much that women have more jobs …but that men have less jobs.

    She’s not wrong about there being a “gender war”, though. It’s brewing. You’d have to be in denial in order to not see it. This is probably the first time I’ve seen White American publications discuss it as openly as some African-Americans do.

  • http://twitter.com/JayelleHughes Jayelle Hughes (@JayelleHughes)

    Any movement begins out of necessity. The feminist movement didn’t just pop up out of nowhere for no reason; it began out of necessity. Women were fed up about something. So if women have become “angrier” (a code word to discourage women from displaying their true thoughts and feelings) and less willing to play a certain role, it is because of a failure of men to play theirs correctly and respectfully. Let’s get to the root of the issue instead of just complaining about the results.

  • ChillyRoad

    There is an argument to be made about how the very noble quest for gender equality has created a hostile environment for men. This article doesnt make a great case but a case can be made nonetheless.

    The problem with may feminist is that they arent honest about what women want. They are ideologues pure and simple. Take this nugget for example, ” women of color have been working along side men for generations.” This wasnt true yesterday and it isnt true today. There are just some jobs women have never done due to biology. We cant work heavy machinery, we cant wrestle cows in the New Mexico desert, we never dug ditches, went into coal mines, or took part in combat. Yes women of color, poor women of color have always worked but we certainly didnt do the above.

    And I hate this myth often repeated by some black women, “While white feminists were fighting for the option to go to work…” No. Middle class white women fought for the option to work. America has recently become a middle class country. White women have always worked. They had farms, they sewed clothes, they taught, they breast feed their own babies. The idea that most white women in American history have been wealthy enough to afford to have a black maid doing everything for her is just plain wrong. Read Grapes of Wrath.

    “Venker goes on to blame feminism, and namely women’s trek from the kitchen to college campuses and the workforce for the decline in “good men.” The only problem with this reality is that fewer college educated men will exist to be paired with their college educated female counterparts. College educated men will have their pick of the litter as their numbers dwindle. Women better get used to not having a man who is as academically yoked as them. However, these men will still probably make more money than women because pink collar jobs, even with university degrees, still dont pay a lot of money. Nor should they.

  • LemonNLime

    That is non-sense. Women can’t stop men from being men. Seriously no one takes personal responsibly for anything, an extremely unattractive trait by the way.

    If my pursuing an education or working or doing things on my own makes you feel like less of a man then 1. you let the actions of others affect your self-worth and 2. you were aren’t much of a man anyway.

  • Perspective

    Wow – Chilly picked up on the same things that I did.

    “But I found Venker’s perspective intriguing because her gripes about the feminism movement and women in the workplace completely overlook the fact that women of color have been working along side men for generations.

    While white feminists were fighting for the option to go to work, women of color have been working for centuries. ”

    Yea I love this one too – but F it – I’ll give them that. Black women did work, but men were the chief bread winners – therefore made the financial decisions and were the head of the household.

    The inference that white women didn’t work is laughable. I see that one too, all the time. This country didn’t even have child labor laws let alone have women who didn’t work. Most white women worked in some form or fashion. I think these sistas have watched Gone with the Wind one too many times – and their OVERT jealously of white women and the luxuries afforded to white women UNDERNEATH PATRIARCHY that they don’t believe in but envy is quite apparent.

    I direct you to the search the internet for the fire that killed a large group of white women working in a textile mill at the turn of the 19th century.

    I’ll also give it to women – during WWII women did build tanks and fighter aircraft – the issue is today there are no women lining up to do those types of jobs, or work in a coal mine, but they want equality?

    Today’s woman want to be equal to men based on jobs that they receive from other men in an air conditioned office building that was erected by men. The problem for black men is that because black men don’t create anything black women get everything they need from WHITE MEN. This creates a level of disrespect for black men, but the reality is that black women do not want black men to surpass them because they fear being subject to black men’s authority. They want black men to overthrow white supremacy from a subordinate position to black women (don’t know how that’s going to happen) and then subscribe to a patriarchal community that is to matriarchal specifications, where black women are valued intrinsically due to the fact that they are LIFE GIVERS – actually it is my male sperm that is alive. The woman’s egg is in suspended animation Meiosis II.

    Women expect men to build for them and give women control of what men have built. Its just not going to happen. It is entirely too much work for men to hand over what women are unwilling to build, nor know how, and for men to be ultimately responsible for preserving and maintaining a infrastructure that he doesn’t control nor has any say in. Society will collapse and women won’t be able to be strong and independent anymore – because there will no longer be men there – even white men – to hire them.

    “Hey chick, you can’t be strong and independent until these men finish putting in the ceiling tiles, floors, insulation, elevator shaft, wiring, alarm system, fire system, and finally the 3000lbs air conditioning units on the roof of the building 57 floors up.”

    Also, I believe that a woman working the same job as a man should get paid the same amount if the women is putting in the same type of hours and work. For me that goes without saying, however, what you will find is that women will purposely take the less demanding jobs because they want time to be with the children. Ironically men’s own technology has created a society that has made men disposable sperm donors.

  • Perspective

    @ Lemon – its not that women are stopping men from being men. Its that men no longer have the desire to be apart of a structure that does not benefit them and has no positive male identity associated with it.

    Your second comment, “you let the actions of others affect your self-worth”

    So what does that say about black women who wear weaves and cry about black men with other races of women?

    And what does man being much of a man mean? I’m assuming he’s supposed to be MORE RESILIENT something that based on the context clues infers that women are NOT?

    Who’s being SEXIST NOW?!

  • LemonNLime

    “Its not that women are stopping men from being men. Its that men no longer have the desire to be apart of a structure that does not benefit them and has no positive male identity associated with it.”

    So they can’t develop their own positive identity? I know lots of black who do this every single day so it isn’t like it’s impossible And why and I responsible for their lack of desires? So there is more competition in the work place and school system? Then work and study harder! God forbid you have to work hard for something.

    “So what does that say about black women who wear weaves and cry about black men with other races of women?”

    So what does that say? It says the exact same thing. That isn’t a sentiment that a reserve solely for men or women but EVERYONE.

    “And what does man being much of a man mean? I’m assuming he’s supposed to be MORE RESILIENT something that based on the context clues infers that women are NOT?”

    Umm, it means that YOU are the one that makes you a “man” not society. Men AND women who are comfortable and sure of themselves don’t need outside validation to tell them what they are. If you feel less masculine because I’m not stuck at home, barefoot and pregnant, then you probably have other issues that you don’t want to deal with and you are using this as a scapegoat.

    “Who’s being SEXIST NOW?!”

    Probably still you…

    I swear I hear men go on and on about how they are the strongest and smartest and most logical blah. blah, blah yet we continue to have these conversations. They are the smartest but have less numbers in university. They are the most strongest and logical but it’s up to women to change their behavior because men can’t control their actions. Utter non-sense.

  • LemonNLime

    *most logical and strongest

  • EST. 1986

    “They are the smartest but have less numbers in university. They are the most strongest and logical but it’s up to women to change their behavior because men can’t control their actions. Utter non-sense.”

    *Gives a round of applause*

  • Joy

    CiCi: Great question. But the other question is does Venker even have a husband. We may be assuming that she does have a husband; when indeed she may not.

  • http://gravatar.com/anmk215 anmk215

    You seem real hurt in side.

  • Joy

    Perspective: WOW! coincidentally yesterday a male friend said to me something really similar to (what you said)….”Its that men no longer have the desire to be a part of a structure that does not benefit them”. And I said to him….you’re kidding right, and he said no I’m not kidding. To which I said two (2) people can always do better than one….on so many levels. So I can attest to the fact that (some) men do have that mind set. I had another male encounter (today) that I will outline on another post

  • Joy

    Lemon: True That !!

  • Joy

    OMG!! Some people may not like this comment but here’s what I encountere today at lunch. A guy insisted on paying for my lunch order (I don’t think he was flirting with me bc I’m quite a bit older than him; he was just in the holiday spirit and being nice). Anyway I said to him Thank You; you are such a nice guy WHY AREN’T YOU MARRIED….why don’t you marry a young black female and make her happy. His response: Women don’t want a nice guy, all they want is someone to babysit their kids. To which I said….why would you want to date, or marry someone with a bunch of kids anyway. He went on to say (and these are his words…not my words); I’ve found that today a lot of women have become lesbians; getting with other women that will take care of them financially, and also getting with other women simply because they can’t find a man. I was like WOW. But the ironic thing is that one of my male friends said this exact same thing in our conversation yesterday. For the record these two men are in different age groups, and live in different cities. My thought….is the female/female (just because thing) becoming a phenonmenon?

  • http://gravatar.com/eynapanirb B.Payne

    Now that LGBT is breaking “moral” barriers to the point that it is starting to become acceptable (IMO), I feel that some if not half of straight women (and men) are making same sex an option for dating rather than just the opposite sex.

    If it’s done out of happiness and not spite, why not, right?

  • JH

    When you start to have lesbian women who have similar and even more masculine traits to men AND seem to be more loving balanced and supportive than your average man then IMO yes it will start to become a more prevalent thing.

  • http://tontonmichel.tumblr.com/ Tonton Michel

    ‘why would you want to date, or marry someone with a bunch of kids anyway.’

    in today’s society meeting someone who doesn’t have rug-rat hidden some where is like finding unicorn smoking blunt.

  • http://britnidanielle.com/ Britni Danielle

    Sounds like he needs to be around a different group of women. This is the same thing I hear from guys who are “sick of hoodrats/gold diggers/trifling chicks”…if that’s ALLLLLL you know/meet, I’m giving YOU the side-eye. Same goes for women who ONLY encounter “ain’t sh*t” men…ummm…start rolling with a new group of people and/or going to different places and you’ll meet a different type of guy/girl.

    As for the whole lesbian comment, I’ve never met, known of or seen a woman who “suddenly” became a lesbian because she couldn’t find a good man.

  • http://tontonmichel.tumblr.com/ Tonton Michel

    she is half right, economic reasons are probably the main reasons men do not want to get married, i don’t see that as the fault of women but the fault of politicians and corporate america who shipped manufacturing jobs over seas while fighting tooth and nail with any type of support to infrastructure. i remember when the was signing the bill that would invest billions of dollars into the state coffers for infrastructure, you had politicians screaming bloody murder over it and swearing they wouldn’t take dime of it. those re the types of jobs that put men to work of all classes, builds middle class and turns the economy round. the other thing is that if men see no value in marriage why bother getting married, it’s just common sense, you don’t need to be married to have kids, build wealth or find happiness. that means your looking at a person for who they are and deciding what is it about them that would make you want to spend the rest of your life with them, and given the attitudes of people today i can see why men would say f- a marriage.

  • Humanista

    I’d like to direct every black person who has ever said “this is why black men date white women; white folks don’t have this ‘problem’” to this essay.

    And as for more equality being a “problem”…yeah right. The PROBLEM is that for some reason, it’s hard for us to see ourselves succeeding unless it’s on the back of someone else. I truly don’t understand how this argument is any different from a white, patriarchal society arguing that whites are “losing” because minorities are more successful.

    It’s ridiculous. How can it not benefit a man, for example, to be more involved in his household? To be allowed the same personal freedom of choosing his path based on HIS OWN desires and strengths and talents? The number of women are increasing in schools and the work place because women have found paths that they are interested in and are working to follow them, which is a human right afforded to all of us. This does not prevent men from doing the same. Equality doesn’t mean women get to “be men”; it means that both men and women get to choose how they want to live w/o the rigid social constraints. People forget that gender constraints don’t just constrain women!

    Individuals who believe that this is true are not experiencing a war; they are just experiencing discomfort due to a [very] little loss of power. Despite the hysteria, we humans are a resilient bunch, and we keep evolving, as we should. Growing pains are just part of the game!

  • EST. 1986

    You told him to marry a ‘young Black female’?

    A ‘young Black female’ could be a 2-year-old girl.

  • Chillyroad

    This must be a joke considering the recent case of the female basketball player who shot into the car of her girlfriend. Domestic violence is frighteningly high in Lesbian relationships and my personal experience with lesbian or studs is that they are violently aggressive toward other women.

  • Rue

    “The problem with may feminist is that they aren’t honest about what women want.”
    Feminism isn’t a movement to define for women but rather a movement to give them the freedom to define for themselves.

  • EST. 1986

    Um, no. Homosexuality does not work like that.

  • Chillyroad

    @brittani

    Lots of Gay for Pay lesbians. Especially struggling single mothers.

  • Rue

    I,and many women like me, remain happily childless

  • http://tontonmichel.tumblr.com/ Tonton Michel

    i didnt know unicorns knew how to type.

  • Shepherd

    Any time I see something like; ‘Fox news says…’ I know to take it with a pinch of salt

  • http://gravatar.com/apurplefist DanaT

    Clutch,
    I’m a little curious as to how you advertise articles or the site. Recently, there have been an influx of borderline trolls (look above) who pop up ONLY in articles discussing relationships or the appearance of black women to spew their internal conflicts and project. At first, it was a bit disruptive, but it seems most readers are treating these users like crying children. However, I am curious as to where these people came from? Like, if maybe your banner accidentally advertises across Stormfront or some other medium that might account for the recent vitriolic users.

  • http://livefromthematrix.wordpress.com TAE

    I don’t know exactly when it happened but I’ve just about lost all desire to engage in critical discussions about issues such as these.I think that most of the issues that are plaguing society are a lot like ripples in a pond. They exist, sure, but they exist merely as a result of the original disturbance, the stone. I feel like in most discussions we run ourselves ragged debating about ripples and never get the chance to focus on or attempt to identify the original disturbance. The only thing I can say that might add any value to this conversation is that I agree with the fact that the genders are definitely warring with one another but as for why, well, that’s pretty much a matter of perspective. In my humble opinion all of this comes down to respect. Men and women do not respect one another, and when I say this I’m speaking in the larger context of our nature as such. Masculinity and femininity are complementary energies that exist within each individual regardless of gender. I believe that the”war” or imbalance we see between women and men in the broad sense is a reflection of the imbalance of masculine and feminine energies within the individual. Basically men and women won’t get right with one another until we allow each other to express our inherent masculine AND feminine energies and both encourage and respect those expressions when we see them. Women have the capacity and the right to express masculinity just as men have the capacity and the right to express femininity. And this is normal. Women can be strong, powerful, authoritative, athletic, providers, scholarly, etc just as men can be sensitive, receptive, artistic, nurturing, emotional, perceptive etc. We are stunting one another by forcing each other into unrealistic expectations of what the other should be, these tiny cramped narrow spaces in which we do not have the room to be ourselves fully and authentically. So we lash out at one another. We disrespect one another. We project our cages onto one another and blame each other for our imprisonment. Until we embrace our inherent duality we can’t embrace the duality that is represented by our sexes.

  • http://gravatar.com/nolakiss16 binks

    Right! Venker sounds dense…and why are people always think of yester-year as this so called “fairy tale land” of wholesomeness and gummy drops. Clearly if she was aware of the problems many women of that era faced that weren’t even spoken of until recently then her tune would change.

  • Joy

    Tonton: I said with a bunch of kids…..not one (1) kid. If I were a man I wouldn’t marry someone with more than 1 kid (2 tops….and and that would be a stretch). Bottomline I don’t get women that have a zillion kids (or even 2 kids), and don’t have a husband (and never has had a husband)

  • Joy

    Shep: I don’t even take fox with apinch….I only take Fox with a grain (and a tiny tiny tiny grain at that). LOL LOL

  • Joy

    Britni: My thoughts exactly. If you hang around with hoodrats, or thugs that’s what you get. I did give him some suggestions as to where he could expand his dating pool (potential)

  • Perspective

    @ LemonNLime –

    You know it never ceases to amaze me at how the most basic of concepts or simply truths can so easily elude black women.

    Do you have any idea why other races of women are valued by their men? I bet that you don’t as I see coming from most black women who believe that women are valued because of their intrinsic value as “life givers.” What does that mean to a man who is not building anything nor trying to pass on what he has built? Answer: Nothing.

    The positive male identity that is productive comes out of a man being a patriarch, building, providing, protecting, and passing on the legacy that he has created and his woman is COOPERATING WITH. If it is HER ship or her program, then it is HER BABY NOT HIS, and as a result you will see a man who does not have a dog in the fight act as such.

    When I say black men are not building – black women’s typical response is, “YEA!!!!!! AND THAT’S RIGHT!”

    When I say black men are not passing anything onto their children black women say, “YEA!!!!!!! AND THAT’S RIGHT!”

    As soon as I say, “And that is why black women have no more value to a black man than any other race of women since he is not passing anything on and therefore it doesn’t matter WHERE HE PUTS HIS SEED because there is no BUILT AND MAINTAINED COMMUNITY TO SPEAK OF, other than the one he is “joining” with his non-black woman,” that’s when black women go –

    “OMG… Wha… Wha… What?! That’s why we are not valued?”

    That’s EXACTLY why you are not valued and will continue to NOT be valued because many of you are too stupid and brainwashed to STOP and LISTEN to how the world actually works.

    “Men should create their own positive identity.” THEY ALREADY HAVE – and it’s called STREET CULTURE. It may not be positive to YOU or ME – but it is most certainly positive to a lost generation of black men who consciously or subconsciously recognize that there is nothing to gain in forming BONDS, families and relationships with African American women.

    Black women have spelled it out numerous times and like to cloak it in equality. It is NOT equality. What is it that women build or maintain? I’ll help you; women maintain the culture that’s about it. Women do not BUILD OR MAINTAIN the PHYSICAL COMMUNITY. When’s the last time you saw a group of black women with yellow hard hats in the BC getting ready to break ground?

    The degrees you brag about are for nothing other than maintaining the white society that already exist. There is NOTHING being learned that is directly applicable to the problems and needs within the black community. What do black women know about foundational building? All of the black women bragging about their degrees and six figure salaries, which is an egregious exaggeration, AREN’T EVEN LIVING IN THE BC – so what are they bragging about?

    Bottom line is, at the end of day if black men don’t build – NOTHING IS GETTING DONE. The community will continue to spiral downward and one of the biggest reasons there is no DRIVE to build coming from black men is because black women do not want to be subject to the authority of black men. Black women really believe that a man is going to shed his blood, sweat, and tears to build up the community, a business, or black infrastructure and then allow her to have 50% say in what she can’t build her damn self. Some women are even worse – they believe that they are going to come through and completely take it over, I.e (matriarchy)

    It’s simply not going to happen. Men are not going to build what they can’t control and they aren’t going to be responsible for what they can’t control.

    If black men were building and passing on what they built through black women with black women understanding that they will be valued, uplifted, and protected – but they WILL NOT BE CALLING THE SHOTS – then OVERNIGHT black women would become INSTANTLY VALUED.

    But like I said, they’re too stupid at the collective level to realize this.

    Like it or not – what I just said will be swimming around in your heads for a VERY LONG TIME.

  • JH

    1986 I apologize if my post sounded like an attempt to define homosexuality. That wasn’t my intention. Rather I’m discussing the mindset of SOME formerly heterosexual women who have decided to start dating women — I see it a lot these days.

  • Keepitreal

    It is indeed becoming the hot new “trend” but such a discussion is forbidden because it implies not everyone who practices homosexuality was born that way. The black family (mom and dad) is in big trouble from all points but that discussion is for another post. SMH

  • Perspective

    @ LemonNLime –

    You know it never ceases to amaze me at how the most basic of concepts or simply truths can so easily elude black women.

    Do you have any idea why other races of women are valued by their men? I bet that you don’t as I see coming from most black women who believe that women are valued because of their intrinsic value as “life givers.” What does that mean to a man who is not building anything nor trying to pass on what he has built? Answer: Nothing.

    The positive male identity that is productive comes out of a man being a patriarch, building, providing, protecting, and passing on the legacy that he has created and his woman is COOPERATING WITH. If it is HER ship or her program, then it is HER BABY NOT HIS, and as a result you will see a man who does not have a dog in the fight act as such.

    When I say black men are not building – black women’s typical response is, “YEA!!!!!! AND THAT’S RIGHT!”

    When I say black men are not passing anything onto their children, black women say, “YEA!!!!!!! AND THAT’S RIGHT!”

    As soon as I say, “And that is why black women have no more value to a black man than any other race of women since he is not passing anything on and therefore it doesn’t matter WHERE HE PUTS HIS SEED because there is no BUILT AND MAINTAINED COMMUNITY TO SPEAK OF, other than the one he is “joining” with his non-black woman,” that’s when black women go –

    “OMG… Wha… Wha… What?! That’s why we are not valued?”

    That’s EXACTLY why you are not valued and will continue to NOT be valued because many of you are too stupid and brainwashed to STOP and LISTEN to how the world actually works.

  • Perspective

    @Lemon

    “Men should create their own positive identity.” THEY ALREADY HAVE – and it’s called STREET CULTURE. It may not be positive to YOU or ME – but it is most certainly positive to a lost generation of black men who consciously or subconsciously recognize that there is nothing to gain in forming BONDS, families and relationships with MOST African American women.

    Black women have spelled it out numerous times and like to cloak it in equality. It is NOT equality. What is it that women build or maintain? I’ll help you; women maintain the culture that’s about it. Women do not BUILD OR MAINTAIN the PHYSICAL COMMUNITY. When’s the last time you saw a group of black women with yellow hard hats in the BC getting ready to break ground?

    The degrees you brag about are for nothing other than maintaining the white society that already exist. There is NOTHING being learned that is directly applicable to the problems and needs within the black community. What do black women know about foundational building? All of the black women bragging about their degrees and six figure salaries, which is an egregious exaggeration, AREN’T EVEN LIVING IN THE BC – so what are they bragging about?

    Bottom line is, at the end of day, if black men don’t build – NOTHING IS GETTING DONE. The community will continue to spiral downward and one of the biggest reasons there is no DRIVE to build coming from black men is because black women do not want to be subject to the authority of black men. Black women really believe that a man is going to shed his blood, sweat, and tears to build up the community, a business, or black infrastructure and then allow her to have 50% say in what she can’t build her damn self. Some women are even worse – they believe that they are going to come through and completely take it over, i.e (matriarchy)

    It’s simply not going to happen. Men are not going to build what they can’t control and they aren’t going to be responsible for what they can’t control.

    If black men were building and passing on what they built through black women with black women understanding that they will be valued, uplifted, and protected – but they WILL NOT BE CALLING THE SHOTS – then OVERNIGHT black women would become INSTANTLY VALUED.

    But like I said, they’re too stupid at the collective level to realize this.

    Like it or not – what I just said will be swimming around in your heads for a VERY LONG TIME.

  • Keepitreal

    Thank you, WTF started this black women shall now be deemed “female” sh*t? Is this the hot new slang and if you’re over 16, WTF are you repeating it?

  • victoria

    In my younger years, I worked for a place that catered to the wealthy. Many rich white clients had Asian wives. The white female employees often commented about how rich white men prefer Asian women. I currently live in Europe and see this pairing (wm/aw) regularly. My sis in law (who is white) often make comments that the men in her country dont date the native women from the country. Granted, her two brothers and one cousin all married black women so I think the comment is also a dig at us. Anyway, I asked my husband why so many native men in his country date Asian women and he stated because these men find Asian women more feminine, willing to take care of home and their husband, and because they focus on family and not their careers.

    What’s crazy about this topic is that America is no longer a country where one income will provide for the family. So how can men say they dont want to compete with women; yet, both incomes are needed to maintain the home.

    Regarding femininity, it’s not like it use to be. But neither is masculinity.

  • EST. 1986

    “Like it or not – what I just said will be swimming around in your heads for a VERY LONG TIME.”

    No. Comments like this are a great way to be dismissed.

  • EST. 1986

    Okay. BUT there is no ‘formally heterosexual’, because one does not choose their sexuality.

  • EST. 1986

    It’s been a thing for several years now and it drives me up a wall.

  • Perspective

    “What’s crazy about this topic is that America is no longer a country where one income will provide for the family. So how can men say they dont want to compete with women; yet, both incomes are needed to maintain the home.”

    That is an issue that should be taken up with the system. Women think working is such a wonderful option until they get pregnant and realize that its no longer an option, but instead of blaming the system – they blame the man for not affording her the luxury of NOT working. Women believe that them working – should be more of a choice than an obligation.

    I wonder if women ask themselves what they fought for. I’m sure there are some women who wish they fought for increased wages for men rather than them entering the workforce. Anyway, welcome to FAKE EQUALITY! because its really not equality – especially when it comes what men have to go through with “EMPOWERED” women (Barf in my mouth)

  • __A

    Men don’t want to get married because they get what they want from women without commitment: sex and companionship. A man can get premarital sex from a woman, get her to live with him, cook for him, clean, do his laundry, and have his kids out of wedlock. They see no reason to get married which might lead to a divorce and taking a financial hit. I doubt that if women suddenly stopped going to school and getting educated that marriage rates would go up. There are many uneducated and poor women in this country. No one is trying to marry them. The only way this Get Back in The Kitchen to Get a Husband Movement would work is if women stopped having sex with men that they are not married to. I think a lot of men would not like that and probably complain. There would be no sowing wild oats, and no more divorces.

    As for college enrollment, I think there are still many men that go to blue collar jobs out of high school. A man without higher education can make good money in certain fields. I think women are more likely to go to college because there aren’t many good paying jobs for women with just a high school diploma. Also, girls mature earlier than boys. They also do well- many times better – on standardized tests. I think since they are more mature at that age, they are more likely to be put in more effort to go to school and take tests. I think that in elementary school, many boys make grades that are pretty high. By middle school and high school, the boys start to fall off. Older kids start to care more about sports and socializing. I think many boys fall off to look cool as well.

    I think girls are just more ambitious than guys when it comes to education, and that’s why the numbers are the way they are. Maybe it’s to prove that we’re not stupid like men think we are. Maybe it’s because we want financial security. Maybe it’s girl power. It’s most likely a combination of all of those.

    People blame feminism for everything these days. If people want to know why people don’t get married, they should look at hookup/baby momma/shackin up for 5+ years/just chillin/friends with benefits culture. I guess feminism can be blamed for this because of the sexual revolution. I don’t blame feminism for hookup culture though. I blame women for having no standards and being so attention starved that they jump to do sexual things to try to win the attention of a man even though it doesn’t work.

  • Echi

    So there’s a Caucasian gender war out there, just a-brewin’? *Runs to grab some popcorn*

    But seriously, some of these guys out here need to man-the-f*ck-up, grow some balls, stop whining about how women are taking over, and get a d*mn job already. It’s a new century. So, jobs are in the service and/or public sector? Go to school, get a nursing degree, a teaching certificate, heck, fold some shirts – go where the money is. Stop effin’ sulking and waiting around for the Leave it to Beaver days.

    I see an ulterior motive in Venker’s essay. Like many of us, she’s just trying to get some. Eggs have to be fertilized and time is ticking. I totally get it. And if appealing to the Neanderthalian nature of the male gender with her “you-big-strong-man-and-me-weak-woman-booga-booga” essay is what it takes for her to get laid, I can’t knock the hustle. Girl, get it! *Snaps fingers*

  • Perspective

    Yea, up until black men are leaping over them to try and get to other races of women, don’t want to get married at all, black women are sitting around wondering why it seems they are undervalued and under appreciated, and lying in their bed at night ALONE in their mid to late 30′s.

    If it don’t apply – let it fly. If it applies, you will be the one sitting around wonder if that RANDOM comment on Clutchmag had some VALIDITY to it not me, because I don’t know about you, but I don’t see black women being collectively valued or black men or women getting ready to lay down any foundations in the black community any time soon.

    All things have a purpose and black men and women aren’t even on the same page.

    I’ve done the math. I’ve listened to the complaints – Black women are out of their minds on this one.

    “He builds it, I run it.”

    Keep dreaming.

  • LemonNLime

    I’m glad you said something Est.1986 because whoever keeps replying has some problems. No where in my post did I mention “black this or that” but whoever this dude is keeps bring it up and then using it to complain about black women mind you on an article about women and, guessing the target of Fox News, I’d say white women. I can’t be expected to debate or maintain a conversation with someone who rattles off nonsense and put words in my mouth rather than come up with an intelligent argument.

  • I got sense!

    I don’t see why your post got so many thumbs down. Maybe people aren’t reading past the first sentence to get what you are saying. I completely agree, by the way.

  • Perspective
  • Wepo1

    “Men are not going to build what they can’t control and they aren’t going to be responsible for what they can’t control.”

    Wow, that is so true!

  • Humanista

    “Men are not going to build what they can’t control and they aren’t going to be responsible for what they can’t control.”

    There’s no love in seeking to control, either way it goes,
    Meanwhile, women have built and been responsible for and have supported many things that weren’t in their control, so, I kind of don’t see your point.

    …Is it that adults are excused from personal responsibility and accountability for how they impact their community because they are not standing on someone’s back?

    And no, you won’t see many women in hardhats, but you’ll see them teaching, raising children, being active in the church, mentoring young people and being living testimonies of where an education can take you.

    If your self-worth, male or female, is hinged on how much control you have over others, a simple change in dynamic will not fix your problems.

  • Humanista

    “If you build it….”

  • Kay

    “What’s crazy about this topic is that America is no longer a country where one income will provide for the family. So how can men say they dont want to compete with women; yet, both incomes are needed to maintain the home.”

    ^^^THIS!!! You can’t have your cake and eat it too! You can’t have it both ways. You can’t want a partner who will contribute equally to the finances but not want them to be a competitive option in the employment market. It makes no sense……

  • Echi

    Why don’t my comments show up but comments with videos and links get posted with the quickness?
    Trying this again…..
    ————-
    So there’s a Caucasian gender war out there, just a-brewin’? *Runs to grab some popcorn*

    But seriously, some of these guys out here need to man-the-f*ck-up, grow some balls, stop whining about how women are taking over, and get a d*mn job already. It’s a new century. So, jobs are in the service and/or public sector? Go to school, get a nursing degree, a teaching certificate, heck, fold some shirts – go where the money is. Stop effin’ sulking and waiting around for the Leave it to Beaver days.

    I see an ulterior motive in Venker’s essay. Like many of us, she’s just trying to get some. Eggs have to be fertilized and time is ticking. I totally get it. And if appealing to the Neanderthalian nature of the male gender with her “you-big-strong-man-and-me-weak-woman-booga-booga” essay is what it takes for her to get laid, I can’t knock the hustle. Girl, get it! *Snaps fingers*

  • monastic_one

    Well said. And may I add that the stone is the economy that has shipped the majority of manufacturing to Asia and has forced men to be trapped in office cubicles and work as nurses to survive.

  • http://clutchmagazine blcknnblvuu

    What challenge or fear keep black men from building anything.black men should be responsible for their feeling and behavior.next perspective going to blame Africa poverty on black women like west african women kept their men from building black africa

  • Ange B

    I think the author of the article got it correct. This argument is flawed. Women of colour have been forced to work long before the feminist movement all over the world. And yet women and men got married and had household split accordingly to what they felt were duties for each. What a lazy way to think that women have to make it so that men are what more manly? What is the benefit of that? Who is the judge of what manliness is? Maybe that is a question Venker should tackle before putting the blame on women.

  • Penny

    “But I found Venker’s perspective intriguing because her gripes about the feminism movement and women in the workplace completely overlook the fact that women of color have been working along side men for generations.”

    Regarding this statement, black women in particular are never even considered as being a part of the equation. We’re not really seen as women by people like Venker; we’re seen as something else: something inferior, wilder, more tolerant of pain/struggle and less deserving of being put on a pedestal. So, our lives don’t contradict her way of thinking because we’re seen as something else entirely…or actually…we’re just not seen at all.

  • LMO85

    Completely agree with your comment. It seems to me that proponents of this tired article/author’s points, don’t seem to get that being a man does not equal the opposite of everything considered “feminine.” And vice versa. It sounds to me like Patriarchy has hurt men too–DUH! And a lot of men need to figure out how to redefine what manhood means to them and learn to live in a more just and equal society in the meantime.

  • K. Michel

    Wow, thank you. It’s easy for things to get lost in translation over the internet so I don’t blame anyone who took what I said the wrong way. Have a great day!

  • Blue

    Fox news has yet to get anything right when it comes to social issues. Blame women? no blame inflation & the economy for us going to school & getting good jobs. Many of us cannot afford to stay at home while the man works let alone waiting to be married.

  • Perspective

    Wow and there you have it EXACTLY WHY BLACK WOMEN should NEVER be in the position to direct a community.

    As I have stated they DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE WORLD WORKS. They operate in a world of magic, spirituality and intrinsics.

    I don’t know where you get the FOUNDATIONS a man lays down with his blood, sweat, and tears MIXED up with CONTROLLING WOMEN.

    If it’s his HOUSE, his BUSINESS, his COMMUNITY INFRASTRUCTURE that HE is expected to defend, and maintain – then YES HE MUST CONTROL THAT.

    On what planet do you live on where and individual is RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OVER?

    That’s like the Republicans blaming Obama for the Global Economic collapse before the man was even in Office!

    And then you wonder why you have so many black men saying F’ it.

    “Meanwhile, women have built and been responsible for and have supported many things that weren’t in their control”

    Wrong! Black women don’t build a damn Thing! Black women are responsible for what THEY have contributed to AND have control over i.e. CHILDREN. How many black men have control over their children? How many women fight the hell out of dual custody.

    And here comes black women’s REJECTION of the white system:

    “If your self-worth, male or female, is hinged on how much control you have over others”

    Which has nothing to do with what I’m talking about, but has everything to do with why and how we got conquered. Black people like you focus on MAGICAL AND INTRINSIC value as opposed to controlling real world tangible things. I’m not talking about people – but clearly you are NOT about being a CONTROLLER – which is EXACTLY why the black community looks the way it does underneath the matriarchal female leadership that exist currently in the black community. You all don’t even control the weaves and wigs you stitch up in your own damn heads.

    AND HERE YOU HAVE MORE EVIDENCE OF WHY BLACK WOMEN SHOULD NEVER BE IN THE DRIVER SEAT

    “you won’t see many women in hardhats, but you’ll see them teaching, raising children, being active in the church, mentoring young people and being living testimonies of where an education can take you.”

    No hard hats which goes right back to what I said about you all not building anything.

    What does you being in the church have to do with the overall condition and circumstances in which black people are living under in the black community.

    LOLOL – living testimonies of where an education can take you.

    YUP – working for the white man – because black women DO NOT SEEK TO CONTROL ANYTHING. I mean, black men are BAD – but black women DON’T HAVE A FREAKING CLUE.

    You are talking about teaching children to be 100% dependent on another group for its survival and here you are bragging about how awesome you are underneath those circumstances –

    OH GOD – let me get the hell away from these types of black women – I MEAN DAMN – Its like a sickness! And women are THUMBS UPING YOUR COMMENT – like you are dropping knowledge SMDH.

    If you are on a man’s shit you either get with the program or GET THE HELL OFF. Its just that simple and there are so many black women who won’t ride on a black man’s ship unless she can control the SHIP HE BUILD ( which men aren’t going to go for) that at this point – WHAT’S THE POINT IN HAVING A SHIP?

    Like I said – black women know nothing about the proper structure of a community. They are too busy trying to BE free and ALWAYS position themselves to be able to have the freedom to do WHATEVER THEY WANT.

  • Perspective

    Typo – Ship not ISH

    Wow and there you have it EXACTLY WHY BLACK WOMEN should NEVER be in the position to direct a community.

    As I have stated they DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE WORLD WORKS. They operate in a world of magic, spirituality and intrinsics.

    I don’t know where you get the FOUNDATIONS a man lays down with his blood, sweat, and tears MIXED up with CONTROLLING WOMEN.

    If it’s his HOUSE, his BUSINESS, his COMMUNITY INFRASTRUCTURE that HE is expected to defend, and maintain – then YES HE MUST CONTROL THAT.

    On what planet do you live on where and individual is RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OVER?

    That’s like the Republicans blaming Obama for the Global Economic collapse before the man was even in Office!

    And then you wonder why you have so many black men saying F’ it.

    “Meanwhile, women have built and been responsible for and have supported many things that weren’t in their control”

    Wrong! Black women don’t build a damn Thing! Black women are responsible for what THEY have contributed to AND have control over i.e. CHILDREN. How many black men have control over their children? How many women fight the hell out of dual custody.

    And here comes black women’s REJECTION of the white system:

    “If your self-worth, male or female, is hinged on how much control you have over others”

    Which has nothing to do with what I’m talking about, but has everything to do with why and how we got conquered. Black people like you focus on MAGICAL AND INTRINSIC value as opposed to controlling real world tangible things. I’m not talking about people – but clearly you are NOT about being a CONTROLLER – which is EXACTLY why the black community looks the way it does underneath the matriarchal female leadership that exist currently in the black community. You all don’t even control the weaves and wigs you stitch up in your own damn heads.

    AND HERE YOU HAVE MORE EVIDENCE OF WHY BLACK WOMEN SHOULD NEVER BE IN THE DRIVER SEAT

    “you won’t see many women in hardhats, but you’ll see them teaching, raising children, being active in the church, mentoring young people and being living testimonies of where an education can take you.”

    No hard hats which goes right back to what I said about you all not building anything.

    What does you being in the church have to do with the overall condition and circumstances in which black people are living under in the black community.

    LOLOL – living testimonies of where an education can take you.

    YUP – working for the white man – because black women DO NOT SEEK TO CONTROL ANYTHING. I mean, black men are BAD – but black women DON’T HAVE A FREAKING CLUE.

    You are talking about teaching children to be 100% dependent on another group for its survival and here you are bragging about how awesome you are underneath those circumstances –

    OH GOD – let me get the hell away from these types of black women – I MEAN DAMN – Its like a sickness! And women are THUMBS UPING YOUR COMMENT – like you are dropping knowledge SMDH.

    If you are on a man’s ship you either get with the program or GET THE HELL OFF. Its just that simple and there are so many black women who won’t ride on a black man’s ship unless she can control the SHIP HE BUILD ( which men aren’t going to go for) that at this point – WHAT’S THE POINT IN HAVING A SHIP?

    Like I said – black women know nothing about the proper structure of a community. They are too busy trying to BE free and ALWAYS position themselves to be able to have the freedom to do WHATEVER THEY WANT.

  • Perspective

    “Regarding this statement, black women in particular are never even considered as being a part of the equation. We’re not really seen as women by people like Venker; we’re seen as something else: something inferior, wilder, more tolerant of pain/struggle and less deserving of being put on a pedestal. So, our lives don’t contradict her way of thinking because we’re seen as something else entirely…or actually…we’re just not seen at all.”

    Black women are less deserving of being on a pedestal and ARE seen as something entirely different because all other races of women are attached to an intact patriarchal community.

    You aren’t about to tell me that black women should be valued and put on a pedestal like other races of women who adhere to their own patriarchal communities, but black women don’t remotely believe in male leadership.

    White women are not PROMOTING THEMSELVES and white women DO NOT control the white community or are leading it in any shape, fashion or form.

    I’ve noticed black women will speak jealously of white women and what they receive and how they are UPLIFTED from and by white patriarchy – but quickly focus on how white women are OPPRESSED in the rejection of any black man even remotely suggesting a black patriarchy.

    I coin this new Oxymoron – PEDESTAL OPPRESSION

    Because white women are on a pedestal but oppressed at the same time – let black women tell it.

    Basically black women want to PEDESTAL without the so called OPPRESSION.

    They want black men to uplift black women from a subordinate position or one of equality which is NEVER REALLY EQUALITY. Its a – he builds it – I manage it arrangement.

    The value of a woman is directly proportional to what a black man is building and if black men aren’t building they have nothing to pass on. If they have nothing to pass on – black women have no value in that regard!

    Given the circumstances of non-building black men – black women have no more value than any other race of woman. In fact, black women have less value than other races of women because for any black man who has some semblance of patriarchy, unfortunately, other races of women are really the only women who FULLY support a patriarchal structure given that they can receive those expected benefits from any man. Hence, for the most part, only dealing with brothas with the resources to provide that, especially in the absence of a intact community, black male power structure, and overall network.

  • Perspective

    Being competitive in the market – and avoiding men who surpass you financially so that you can be the dominate one in the relationship are two different things.

    You ain’t never seen intimidation until a black woman comes across black men that are doing better than them. Now they gotta find some way to dismiss them “AHA – they are arrogant!”

    “Aha – they like white women!”

    “Aha – he just wants to control me!”

    Black women will avoid the hell out of a black man with that type of power.

    I gotta give it to white women because they will play the ish out of their position and when they get tired – HALF!

    Black women will get with a man who a few steps below them – DIVORCE and then complain about how she’s raising the kids mainly alone and the man doesn’t have much to contribute.

    This is why black women are the WORST gold diggers. They do not have the discipline to keep their attitudes in check long enough to get to the GOLD.

    Calling black women GOLD DIGGERS is such a false label, although it does have a lot to do with the INTRINSIC value black women place on things in order to get a man to cosign playing the subordinate role.

    LONG AS HE LOVES CHRIST/ HAS SWAG/ LAYS PIPE/ MAKE ME FEEL GOOD – that’s all I need.

    Men subscribe to that – then get hit with that they are incapable of doing and then BACKLASH with the gold digger complaint.

    Gold digging is the last thing brothas have to worry about when it comes to black women – because when they recognize that a brotha has his own ship and power that she can’t control – you might have well have sprayed yourself with STRONG BLACK WOMAN REPELLANT.

  • Perspective

    ALSO – SUPPORTING IT – is not the same as ACTUALLY BUILDING IT.

    You would think that black women would support what is supposed to ultimately benefit them and the children. I forget you expect to NOT support it but be the first to be chosen in the “I want to get with you line,” once the black man finishes this project.

    You all are like women who refuse to bring water to the soldiers on the front lines, but get mad when those same men start to question what they are really fighting for and trying to preserve.

    “Hey, white man, yea you need to come over here and conquer our asses because I can’t do nothing with her anyway. Here, we’ll just line up so you can shoot us, because we can’t continue or pass on anything anyway!”

  • __A

    “But does our access to opportunities equal a war on men? Or is Venker infantilizing men by assuming they are so distraught by women in the workplace they now feel inadequate?”

    No. Men can go to school just like us. They are supposed to be so much smarter and more logical than us. If they would enroll and compete against these women, they wouldn’t be distraught. There are many academic areas still dominated by men. Go do them. Stop complaining and just do it.

    “Women aren’t women anymore.”

    This is silly. Making your own money makes you less of a woman?

    “Fortunately, there is good news: women have the power to turn everything around. All they have to do is surrender to their nature – their femininity – and let men surrender to theirs.”

    Again silly. If women stopped going to school, many of them would just be a bunch of spinsters sitting on their parents’ couch or baby mommas or live in girlfriends or members of a harem. Venker mentions in her article the real problem:

    “Feminism serves men very well: they can have sex at hello and even live with their girlfriends with no responsibilities whatsoever.”

    This is why people don’t care about marriage anymore. When women start to rethink hookup culture things will change.

  • alldawg

    Thats a good point, PEDESTAL OPPRESSION…makes perfect sense.

  • Drebin

    @perspective

    Wow keeping dropping that knowledge and digging it into their chest, they don’t wanna see it… but you are writing the absolute 100% truth!!!!

  • http://www.geekmommarants GeekMommaRants

    Harriet Tubman was not worthy if not then why would any one want to be? She is our communities baddest most courageous. Where OH where was the black male power structure when this little black woman stopped injustice much like Mohammad? hehehehehe

  • Perspective

    @ GeekMomma

    Way to pull Harriet Tubman out of your ass as it it has anything to do with a patriarchal structure which is the first thing that is REMOVED when a people become ENSLAVED.

    Damn – the way women reason – annoys me. D.L. Hughley was right.

    You statement has about as much relevance to the conversation as Nat Turner does to fatherhood abandonment.

    If you have nothing of substance to say, and are simply REACHING to defend black women against the obvious truths that I just laid out. Please don’t.

    Incongruous statements of EMPOWERMENT meant to make black women INSTANTLY feel better like some sort of MARVEL COMIC FORCE FIELD – does not withstand the arguments of logic and reason.

    Black women are not valued like other patriarchies because we don’t exist in a patriarchy as a black community and black men are not passing anything on. Its just that simple.

    I’ll be waiting for the ASSUMPTIONS that women are supposed to be valued intrinsically.

    Like I said – black women don’t know how the world actually works. This is what happens when you stop listening to people and the world around you, go into a room and just CO-SIGN each others BS and call it a SUPPORT SYSTEM.

  • Perspective

    Do black women have ears?

    ” Go do them. Stop complaining and just do it.”

    No black men are NOT JUST GOING TO DO… there is no purpose behind men doing these things. Men are not going to build what they don’t control.

    Simply doing those things doesn’t get black men anywhere. Not only because men are no longer directing the community but because SIMPLY HAVING AN EDUCATION GIVEN TO US BY WHITE MEN – is only going to get you so much respect – especially from your own women and black women remind black men of that everyday – but expect us to go out here and GET AN EDUCATION as they stupidly brag about as if black women are making power moves to CONTROL anything with the jobs that are given to them by white men.

    I don’t suggest that women don’t work – but I do think that the problem is with women in that as soon as they get money – they run off, say bump structure, and do whatever they want to do – but yet expect men to MAINTAIN their position where men take on the lions share of the responsibilities STILL even with women fighting for more power of decision.

    No one should be responsible for what they control. The truth is WOMEN ARE NOT WOMENING UP!

    Women have more power – but have they taken on more responsibility at the collective level NO.

    They do not know what it takes to maintain a community. Their degrees, which are frequently in less technical areas, are for nothing more than maintaining or being apart of the white infrastructure that already exist. Black women are NOT laying down foundations with those degrees so them having the degrees is NOT the issue.

    The issue is them BELIEVING that now that they have a good job and a degree that they have more power than they actually do and then snubbing their own me.

    Women talk a whole bunch of ish. I just look at it. In this EQUAL community they want – I sure hope that they don’t need any bridges being built or roads being paved because IF MEN DON’T DO IT, THOSE TYPES OF JOBS AREN’T GETTING DONE.

    An educated woman can’t be a strong independent woman can’t be strong and independent in an office building until MEN get done building the building, and if women think that men are going to BUILD only to have women snub them, women will see just how NOT powerful they are the minute that men shut down.

    This has already happened in the black community black women just haven’t realized it because they are subsidized by the white community and trying to exist in the white community with their degrees. Let the white man pull the plug on THAT, like they did black men in the 60′s with those factory jobs and ITS A WRAP!

    Black women really need to check themselves and tone down their arrogance because black women aren’t building a damn thing in the black community in light of all of their supposed DEGREES which is less than 10% of the black female population.

  • http://www.geekmommarants GeekMommaRants

    Black men are imprisoned not because of racism NO, actually it’s because there are not enough black lawyers to huh, defend them in court.

    Black men do not live long as other men why? Not enough black doctors.

    Black men do not have enough employment, why? Not enough black businesses.

    Living in a broken down house and thinking of throwiing a stone makes you silly, which you are.

    A men seeks the respect of other men, no screaming and prancing around women to show-off, which who YOU ARE!!

  • http://www.geekmommarants GeekMommaRants

    No power structure is composed of an individual, but rather a group. Frederick Douglas, adviser to Lincoln and US Ambassador to Haiti does not comprise a power structure. Actually Ambassador Douglas was a great individual man, again, not a power structure.

  • http://www.geekmommarants GeekMommaRants

    Exactly!!!

  • http://gravatar.com/rastaman1967 rastaman

    I do believe this woman is vocalizing the views of a significant number of men and women in this society. There are still many men for whom marriage and family requires them to be the straw that stirs the drink and there are still a significant number of women who agree. If our society does not provide those men with a means to make a living that can support a family then many of those men will be resigned to sit on the sidelines. I applaud the women who have gone out and competed educationally and professionally but we cannot overlook the declining male participation as the society changes. If a growing number of men are not participating and advancing they will begin to be disgruntled. You only have to look to Arab societies to see what happens when there is a growing population of disgruntled or frustrated men, they become a fostering ground for violence and repressive beliefs.
    Men and women are irrevocably joined, any view that one group can progress without the other is foolish.

  • Perspective

    @ GeekMomma

    I would really appreciate if you would make your points in complete sentences rather than these incoherent riddles.

    And what does your riddle have to do with the SPECIFICS of what I just said. Address the points.

    “Black men are imprisoned not because of racism NO, actually it’s because there are not enough black lawyers to huh, defend them in court.”

    (EYES ROLL) because the prison industrial complex is a FIGMENT of the imagination which includes the very book that Michelle Alexander wrote – smdh

    All of the above are needed – but all of the above are directly attached to patriarchal communities where men are trying to pass on their legacies through black women and take on responsibility of WHAT THEY CONTROL.

    If they don’t control it – IT CAN NOT BE THEIR RESPONSIBILITY.

    Yes men seek the respect of other men, but that respect which is attached to a MALE IDENTITY CAN BE ANYTHING.

    Street culture is men gaining the respect of other men and the most basic semblance of a male power structure. THAT culture does not require, building, maintaining, raising children, or WOMEN other than sexual objects because THOSE MEN ARE NOT TRYING TO PASS ANYTHING ON.

    The POSITIVE male identity which is directly associated with PATRIARCHY has 50 times the amount of responsibility than the street culture where RESPECT is measure by less tangible and a more intrinsic value system – SUCH AS SWAG!

    That culture has no PURPOSE or GOAL other than empowering the group so that they may gorge in female in what is ENJOYABLE rather than was is necessary, needed, and required in order to preserve a functioning community that has a structure that extends beyond the GANG ITSELF.

    You take away the “PASSING ON OF LEGACIES” from the positive male identity and the resultant ‘males respecting males’ culture WILL BE STREET CULTURE, BY DEFAULT – because THOSE men are not passing anything on, therefore they don’t care about you, they don’t care about children, they don’t care about the economy – because they don’t operate in that system, they don’t care about schools, education, jobs, or any semblance of an infrastructure that would REQUIRE SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF DISCIPLINE that even the black women they deal with DO NOT HAVE!

    Your thought process is BASIC

  • Perspective

    Yea – up until you find out that with their new found “power” women want 50% say, yet they don’t build anything.

    Up until you realize that they still expect you to fulfill the duties of building and maintaining the community but they think they are going to have final say or veto power on what you have established.

    If you think that women are going to actually say – THEY AREN’T OPPRESSED BY MEN ANYMORE – you are out your mind, especially black women – who have NEVER REALLY BEEN OPPRESSED BY BLACK MEN.

    There is no blockade of black men preventing black women from doing anything.

    Where are these black businesses controlled by black men that are denying black women jobs because they want to HOLD THEM DOWN. Where are these black businessmen who are unwilling to pay black women the same wages they pay another man for the same job?

    The very complaints that black women file black men exonerates black men from ALL the institutional complaints that black women file.

    They need to take those complaints with the institution – I direct them to the white community and the white male.

    Black men can’t be POWERLESS – “Oh you can’t stop me, black women are SURPASSING BLACK WOMEN,” only to be later accused of somehow OPPRESSING BLACK WOMEN.

    The only complaints that black women can label against black men are.

    Childhood abandonment (although I reserve the right to charge them for some of these losers they have babies by indiscriminately)

    Much of the crime – but you do need patriarchal men in the community to establish those jobs and opportunities that black women DO NOT SUPPORT.

    and

    The general mistreatment of women from Rape to Cheating (as if women don’t cheat)

    EVERYTHING ELSE?! Jobs, the glass ceiling, and all that ish – NAH! I suggest they go over there and file those complaints with there local white man – because black men don’t have anything to do with that.

  • EST. 1986

    The oppression of women hasn’t stopped simply because a few gains have been made.

  • Perspective

    Est. 1986

    Give me the list of the ways in which women are oppressed. I’ll be here waiting…

  • Perspective

    Est. 1986 – I’m still waiting on this list. Oh I see you must have thought I was being facetious. No I’m dead serious. In what ways do black women continue to be oppressed?

  • Do better

    Men like you aren’t even good for sperm donors. With that attitude no woman is going to want a kid with your genes, much less put up with a few minutes (I’m sure) of actual sex with you.

  • __A

    @Perspective – Please black men with degrees do just fine. I really would like to meet these legions of attractive, nice, masculine, and educated black men that are getting turned down by black women who are afraid of patriarchy. When educated men get turned down it is because they lack other things that attract women not because they have an education. Do you really think BW would run away from Shemar Moore or Blair Underwood if they had a degree?

    If black men don’t want a white man’s degree, then you all should be trying to create your own institutions. It’s simple black people have to learn how to live in the larger American society(get an education), or they have to create their own thriving communities(build stuff). You all aren’t trying to do either one of these. You say that men don’t want to build because they don’t get rewarded for building. As GeekMommaRants says, you reward each other with respect!!!!! Men are supposed to do things that make other men respect them. Women see other men respecting certain men and see these men as the best of the best. In the black community, too many black men are giving respect to men who do nothing positive. It is a big reason that the most famous rich black men are rappers who talk about nothing but booty, cars, and money. It is a big part of why black boys emulate that behavior.

    You looked at my comment through your black gender war lens. My comment was about men and women in general. White boys have better access education than minority children. They go to the same schools as white girls. Why are they not enrolling? Women are just more interested in school which is why you see the numbers. Men are able to get decent paying blue collar jobs, and that’s why they don’t pursue college as much as women. A woman would only be able to work for minimum wage or so at a department store. They go to college to get better paying jobs and have financial security.

    If men want to get mad, they should stop looking at feminism and look at politicians who decided to work with companies to outsource.

    Black women are arrogant? Because I’m saying you all should do something other than whining? Indeed there are lots of black women without degrees. It is why I don’t understand why people spend so much time talking about educated black women. But black women are out here trying to go to school just like other women. You all should be striving to compete against other men! Not getting upset at us because we are going to college and trying to get educated like other women are doing.

    Please don’t even offer that excuse you write over and over about men not wanting to build because of patriarchy and how BW don’t support patriarchy and blah blah blah. There is no patriarchy in the black community because black folks don’t get married and have their kids inside a marriage. As long as men impregnate women that they don’t care about and LEAVE, yea there will be a matriarchy. Your whole point is that de evil black woman his stripped your patriarchy away with her scheming to get pregnant by irresponsible men. I find both parties in the baby momma/ baby daddy duo irresponsible. But men who can’t even avoid impregnating women are irresponsible. Humans are not naturally that organized or civilized. There has to be someone to set the rules and convince people to fall in line to advance a society and create rules that introduce stability. That is usually men! You are saying that women won’t let you be men. Women won’t let you have patriarchy. How the heck could black women be the head of household if they didn’t have a household? Men give them their matriarchy with their poor decisions. You give women the power and let them be the heads of household when you give them children and walk away! Again both parties are irresponsible, but you are going on and on about patriarchy. Patriarchy requires male sacrifice that many men are uninterested in.

    “No black men are NOT JUST GOING TO DO… there is no purpose behind men doing these things. Men are not going to build what they don’t control.”

    The majority of black men are working jobs that white men are giving them. What is the difference in going to school and getting an education and getting a job vs. coming out of high school and getting a job? A big one is the pay. Either way it is most likely a white man giving the job away and they still run the show. A lot of you all are already building things you don’t control.

  • Shelly

    I vote for Perspective (and others like him) to be kicked off the island!

    “Black women are less deserving of being on a pedestal”
    “You aren’t about to tell me that black women should be valued and put on a pedestal like other races of women who adhere to their own patriarchal communities”
    -Perspective

    I am not a woman who gets upset when someone makes a good point about issues regarding black women. I actually think it’s great to be honest with ourselves and try to right our wrongs, as we are not perfect and certainly have some work to do as a whole. But today, I have just gotten tired of the Angry Black Man Brigade. I come on this site to read uplifting articles for and about black women, yet we are constantly bombarded with criticism in the comments section. We get enough criticism from folks in the real world on a daily basis; do we still have to hear about how “messed up” we are on Clutch, one of the few places built for us to be able to forget about the stress, drama, degradation, and exploitation we face from day-to-day? There has got to be another way to change some of the issues that plague the black community than irking the nerves of black women until we “get it.” Using your voice to dog black women wherever we congregate is not the way. To be clear, I enjoy hearing the ideas that black men have about black women. I think for Black Americans as a whole to move forward, we obviously need help from the men. And I actually think Perspective and some of those like him make logically correct points sometimes. But these men’s approach is all wrong and instead of helping, is only hurting and aggravating.

    Clutch, PLEASE CREATE A FLAGGING SYSTEM.

  • EST. 1986

    What the heck are you talking about? Excuse me if I am not sitting around waiting for responses to my comments.

  • http://twitter.com/ZenMamaPolitic Alisha M.Gray (@ZenMamaPolitic)

    @ZenMamaPolitic Honestly; this is an argument buried within an argument based in Patriarchal fallacy. There are several elements missing: Black Men are in a short supply because of many diff. reasons, including incarceration, death, marriage; or dating exclusively another race. In addition; Black women are primarily single mothers, (over 70%) that may or may not wish to get married. This often signals also that, (yes) the other party (male) is unwilling to do the same; which is normally not a problem if there is maturity and the kids are taken care of by both. However; this is the problem…

    The black males often do not choose fatherhood; especially over Capitalism. And unlike white males do have more social pressure. All of this being said; it makes no sense to play between Black men & women, when Black women are always the most oppressed. How can we the blame for both carrying a male on our shoulders; along with sometimes allowing his feet to touch the ground? I’m sorry..but no one deserves to be carried by women; as if we are their slaves. Black males still refuse to believe that they are benefiting from White and Male Privilege.

    Whether we work at home, in the office..whatever. It has no consequence for Black males. Society had dictated the relationship that he will play, and he had made his decision. Unfortunately; he must learn to make more of them..with better efficiency. I agree with the posts above that Patriarchy is being heralded as a savior For White women, and being used as an oppressive measure once again towards Black Women. It is a ‘double-edged sword’, and I don’t like the way that it is attempting to slice right through us. Period.

  • Humanista

    Persp: “The community will continue to spiral downward and one of the biggest reasons there is no DRIVE to build coming from black men is because black women do not want to be subject to the authority of black men.” (black men controlling black woman. You said it; I did not.)

    My point is that there’s no way a successful (ie. beneficial to all involved) community can thrive if 1/2 of it refuses to positively contribute because they have to split control with someone else, ESPECIALLY when that someone else is contributing as much or (sometimes) more. Our community will only succeed as a whole when people start giving a damn about someone outside of themselves. (And there’s a lot of that going on in men and women). And no one can make that happen from outside influence. We only care when we choose to. It sounds like you’re saying that black men are not caring because of what someone else is doing or not doing, and I am saying that if you have an integrity at all, then you are GOING to care about and fight for your kids because they are yours; you’re going to start your own business because you care about the state of your community and effecting change–hell, or at least care about getting rich and getting hoes. Or something.

    Also, even as someone in the building profession, I am unsure how “building” becomes more important than all of the other things that happen to make a society run smoothly. The people who are constructing infrastructure are merely an instrument among many others. That role is important, but not necessarily more so than a nurse or engineer (the person who makes sure that bridge is actually worthwhile), or whoever watches and feeds the kids at home, those who make laws, etc. And outside of perhaps some indigenous societies, those who do the building are NEVER the ones pulling the strings, or with the most status and wealth AND POWER (class, not gender). Those who plan and are managing others are the most influential, period. So, yeah, women are taking on these more *influential* roles (often requiring the education that women lately have been getting) and therefore may have more influence than before in some ways. Men could, too, if they just did it. Obviously, in a time where there was no chance for women to have this type on influence, patriarchy worked, but since women are gaining more white-collar jobs, why SHOULDN’T they expect more control than 0%??? (Except to stroke the egos of men who only feel they have a stake in something when they’re the boss) ESPECIALLY when women have been cooperative and positive contributors throughout history regardless of whether or not they had power.

    You seem to be arguing that men are simply not hardwired to *not* be destructive unless they have 100% of a say. That sounds like the kind of tantrum I’d call childish if it wasn’t so dangerous. But thank God that’s not the case; there are plenty. PLENTY, of men that are continuing to thrive and love and support their families and communities, eeeeven in these dark times of increasing gender equality! (sarcasm). They are taking responsibility for sustaining their families and communities and are therefore sharing influence…with women who are doing the same.

    Those who are not thriving are not because if a host of reasons: upbringing, poverty, lack of personal responsibility, etc…not because a woman took a college application out of their hands, tore up their job application or began a exporting jobs across the globe en masse….which hasn’t actually happened, so…

  • Flash

    What a cop-out Perspective wasn’t being insulting, degrading or abusive yet you want him kicked off, why? Because you dont have the debate skills or intelligence to counter attack his points.

    Your not content with the repetitive use of thumbing his comments down so you want to up the ante by creating a flagging system…weak! lol

    These are controversy topics involving men so of course some are going to comment and thats their right, you dont like a certain users posts dont read it.

  • Shelly

    @Flash…that is low of you to assume i’m dumb just because I’m tired of the criticism. I usually read these black man/black woman debates…but it’s old. It’s way past old. I am intelligent and if it was worth it, could attempt to debate about these subjects, but I won’t. If you are going to come on a women’s website, at least be respectful regarding the subject of women. If some of you dislike us so much, why can’t you leave us alone?

  • Shelly

    @flash and yes, he was being insulting. If I want to hear about how black women aren’t worthy of this and that, I will go on youtube or generation x. I don’t understand why you all have to bleed into women’s forums. This is not the right way to “get through” to us.

  • tymetravelife

    …They will come. Very true.

  • tymetravelife

    “Wow and there you have it EXACTLY WHY BLACK WOMEN should NEVER be in the position to direct a community.

    As I have stated they DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THE WORLD WORKS.”

    @ Perspective-
    It is you who don’t understand how the world works. The problem with all of your rants is that you have the WRONG idea that your competition is women. The truth is that your real competition is MEN. THAT IS HOW THE WORLD WORKS.

    Therefore, when you start ranting about what black women WILL NOT LET YOU–A MAN–DO, it makes you sound weak. And your many attempts to blame black women for your cowardice & inability to go out into the world & compete with other men is, let’s be real, very pathetic.

    Really, you should not be having this conversation with women. You should be out in the world competing with men & making things happen.

  • Mademoiselle

    _A came out swinging! I love it. Great assessment.

  • davemm

    This magazine seems to contradict itself alot…you paint the picture as black men vs black women all the time and now we are on the same team? From what I observe on television, YouTube and magazines for black women; black women hate black men. There is no we anymore….

  • Kam

    It’s a common stereotype among white males that Asian women are more feminine and focus on the family (to which I have to say watch this short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kbGrQe17cU).

  • Kam

    Black men have had a whole genre of music denigrating Black women for decades and you’re complaining about some televisions shows? Black girls get harrassed by Black men from the time they grow breasts (and sometimes before) and you’re worried about a couple of Youtube videos? Black women suffer from high rates of domestic violence, sexual abuse and abandonment by Black men and you’re sad about some magazine? All mediums in which equal hate is shown towards Black women by Black men. When you sow hatred in your garden don’t expect roses to grow. Maybe you’ve got some weeding to do.

  • davemm

    Who do you think signs those artist, there not black men and haven’t you noticed the record companies won’t sign any black men with any bachelors degrees or higher. Record labels will sign white male musicians that graduate from some of the top universities but when it comes to black men they’ll sign anybody. Most hip hop artist are scum they found in the ghettos of the inner-city these men will do anything for money. Black men have done nowhere near the horrible crimes that whites and arabs have done to your people, so don’t point the finger at us.

  • http://gravatar.com/d63morrison d63morrison

    Black men in the inner-city ghettos are a product of there environment, what do expect from those low lives. They are under educated and have no respect for anyone but what annoys is the fact that every black women on here thinks all black men live in the inner-city. I don’t live in the inner-city ghetto, first of all so I’m not defending those pathetic excuses for men. Don’t you know that upper middle class and middle class black men don’t share the same issues that black people in the inner-cities have. Your making tremendous assumptions and generalizations.

  • Kam

    To davemm and d63morrison: Bullshit and Bullshit. I’ve been hearing the same tired excuses for YEARS now. You’re wasting your breath, those lines don’t work on me anymore, and I suspect they aren’t working on a number of other Black women. The actions towards Black women don’t match up with the words. And it’s not just the inner city “scum” as you put it, though Good Black Men™ would have us believe so. The silence from Good Black Men™ is deafening and in my view makes it much worse. If what you say is true, then organize yourselves and SPEAK UP.

  • http://gravatar.com/d63morrison davemm

    I’m not using the good black man line, right now I’m working towards my degree so I can have a voice. I’m not a good black man, I haven’t earned that title yet because I’m still a college student and haven’t started my career. Right now, black men are already doing something about the situation, have you ever heard of Dr. Steve Perry from the television show “Save my Son”. You need to stop watching the idiot box, they have been showing negative images of black men and women since the beginning of television, have you heard of “blackface”. Honestly the fact that you can’t defend your stance in this argument without using vulgar language, proves your not worth my time. How about you do something to help your fellow black women and try to repair the image of black women in the media by becoming a activist. Action speaks louder than words and black men have always been standing up for the black community but right we’re going through some tough times. If you can’t handle being black, just claim a another race, get a degree and marry a white man so you can move out to a white neighborhood, so you won’t have to deal with it anymore.

  • http://gravatar.com/d63morrison d63morrison

    Can you formulate a valid argument without using vulgar language.

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