Jovan Belcher murders girlfriend

As we continue to grapple with the tragedy that left 22-year-old Kasandra Perkins dead, many are wondering what caused her boyfriend to take her life. While discussions about traumatic brain injuries, infidelity, guns, entitlement, and domestic violence swirl about; one thing that is rarely discussed are conventional notions of masculinity.

In his essay for CNN, writer and activist Kevil Powell discussed the ways in which manhood and the socialization of men may be to blame for this horrific event.

Powell writes:

Belcher was a man living in the supersized macho world of football, a world in which many of us American males reside, be it football or not. Too many of us have been taught manhood in a way that is not healthy. Be tough, men do not cry, man up — these are the things I’ve heard my entire life, and I now cringe when I hear this relayed to boys or younger men by teachers, coaches, fathers, mentors and leaders.

Or we use derogatory and sexist or homophobic words to describe men or boys who do not meet the “normal” of what a male is supposed to be. Some of these male authority figures mean well, or are simply repeating what they were socialized to be or to do, and do not realize that they are unwittingly teaching that manhood has little room to express hurt, disappointment and sorrow.

Rob Okun echoed Powell’s sentiments in an article he wrote for the Ms. Magazine blog:

Let’s stick with the facts: It was domestic violence. It was murder. Belcher killed his “beloved” Kasandra Perkins, the 22 year-old mother of his three month-old daughter Zoey, at their home and then drove to team headquarters and killed himself in front of his head coach, general manager and other staff. Missing from the news accounts? It’s the masculinity, people.

In the aftermath of the murder-suicide, I can’t get the mantra “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore” out of my head. That famous line from the classic film Network just won’t go away. Maybe that’s a good thing. Maybe millions of us should open our windows and stick our heads out and yell it, adding this additional phrase: “I’m mad as hell that we keep ignoring the shadow side of masculine culture, and I’m not going to take it anymore.”

Both essays made me think of a TED talk I’d seen about “The Man Box” by Tony Porter.

During his talk, Porter recounted a story in which he asked a 12-year-old football player how he would feel if his coach said he playing like a girl. While Porter expected the boy to say it would upset him, the boy admitted being compared to a girl would “destroy him.” Surprised by his response, Porter wondered, “If it would destroy [a boy] to be called a girl, what are we then teaching him about girls?”

As the mother of a young son I think a lot about the messages I am teaching him and how it will affect him (and the women he will encounter) later in life. Although my son is just seven, I am acutely aware that there are forces in the world that are pushing him to value his physical strength and mental toughness over his ability to communicate his feelings. Because of this I make it a point to always check in with him about what he’s thinking and feeling, which not only gives him an outlet, but also lets him know it’s ok to be open about such things.

Unlike Belcher, and other men who may keep their feelings bottled up until they explode, even at seven, my son knows that talking rather than hitting or reacting angrily is always the best choice. Unfortunately, this is not what is taught—explicitly and implicitly—to young men and boys.

Men are taught to be tough, to not cry, to “man up”, to never be weak or vulnerable or love too much. We force men into boxes that don’t allow them to fully express who they are and how they think, but then we are surprised when they explode.

While Belcher is totally at fault for stealing Kasandra from her daughter and the world, I can’t help but wonder how this whole thing could have been avoided if he, and other violent men, had the necessary tools to deal with their emotions.

By teaching, and some instances shaming, men to be hyper-masculine are we ensuring that violence against women will continue? Speak on it. 

*Photo cred: Marvelous-girl.com

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    a man has no reason to hit a women.

    there are many animals who are posing as men when they are not.
    unfortunately, naive young women are fooled.

    sisters, learn what a a real man is and accept no substitutes.

  • SAMURAI36

    I cannot believe the media is trying to blame Belcher’s insanity on “masculinity”. How’s about, he was just a crazy-ass dude, that people should have seen the warning signs & red flags long before this situation got out of hand?

    A man that hurts a woman in any way, is a weak man, simple as that.

  • The Comment

    I like when writers go beyond the obvious…. this is wrong…men should never hit/kill women….

    To hear a 12-yr-old boy say he would feel destroyed if he was compared to a girl is eye-opening to me. When I was a little girl…..any comparison to a boy in sports, math, or innovation was good. “I must really be the …..” but I never thought that it would be the complete opposite for boys.

    As a married woman……blah blah blah……. I will tell you and any other married fart will do the same…… men are wired different. They can take a dump in a dump and have no problems with it..while women will spend half an hour cleaning it before they sit down.

    It would be nice if men understood that being a woman is hard: I can’t walk away from my kids when shit hits the fan. I bleed every month and I hate it. I’m emotional. I have to work harder than you and come home and cook and clean. In the midst of all this drama I have to look like a lady and keep my hair and nails maintained. When I choose to sleep around I have to do it in another state or keep the ish so down under that it is damn near a part-time job. All because I don’t want to look like a hoe/whore/slut..or whatever label you wanna call me.

    Sooooo seems like I should be the one coming home kicking azz and taking names. Where is my local strip joint where I can escape the worlds problems by putting newly pressed dollah bills on some young studs rock hard abs????

    Then you wonder why we on the phone for 10 hours running our own venting marathon to each other. BEING A WOMAN IS HARD!

  • paul

    The irony

    sister, learn what a real man is . . .

    I thought the point of this piece was to question this kind of shaming language.

    sigh smh

    The toughest battle you fight as a human male is resisting the never ending pressure to be

    somebody’s “real man”.

    But not being a real man is a beautifully empowering thing if you can get there. It gives you not the power to hurt, or to control or to claim superiority – as empowerment is expressed in some circles, but the power to love.

    Now let’s see how they cope with that display of male sentimentality.

  • http://www.geekmommarants GeekMommaRants

    Excellent post! The question I have is who is we? Yes, our society does this to all men, not just black men. Women do not demand men act like stoic machines, actually, women want the opposite. IMO it is male culture and standards that forces boys and men into boxes.

  • Perspective

    I’m going to address as many points as I can and I hope that I have the freedom to do it.

    “I’m mad as hell that we keep ignoring the shadow side of masculine culture, and I’m not going to take it anymore.”

    Really, so the fact that this woman got killed! is being associated with “man culture”? So I guess any time a mother dumps her child in a freezing garbage can in an ally, stuffs her child in a microwave, blows her husbands head off in his sleep because she’s upset about the direction of their relationship, or makes FALSE accusations of rape – HOFSTRA! that it MUST equate to the dark side of woman culture?

    When I get into discussions with women about marriage – those women who are extreme feminist will often times site this notion that women should get out of marriage, and away from violent husbands. 70 years later black women are the least likely to get married, have SINGLY RAISED many of these so called violent males, and violence against black women is astronomically higher than it was when black women were married at rates of 90-80% in the early 1900s?

    Seems to me that MALE MASCULINITY is not the problem – but the EROSION OF IT.

    That same MANHOOD is the same MANHOOD that supposedly protects white women from threats. That same manhood is the manhood that has them looking for dead white girls 2 years after their supposed disappearance. Black women still look for these same types of protections and concepts of UPLIFTMENT from black men – but ignore the fact that MANHOOD has been SEVERELY ERODED in the black community LARGELY BY BLACK FEMINISM.

    The connection between masculinity and violence against women is really weak and the idea that this is PURELY coming from MEN or SOCIETY IN GENERAL and not ALSO women specifically is intellectual dishonesty at its best. When men commit violence against women – who looks for those men? Who punishes those men? THAT’S RIGHT OTHER MEN!

    I watched the video – and immediately I had problems with it. The idea that women are objects and specifically sexual objects as if that’s just the most terrible thing in the world.
    People sexually objectify THOSE whom they are attracted to. “What, women don’t sexually objectify black men?” Let black men not sexually objectify black women and sexually objectify – WHITE WOMEN – and it’s a problem.

    If sistas are in a rap video, they are mad that they are being sexually objectified.
    If they are replaced by white women – now they are mad that they are being replaced and white women are being objectified over them.

    The other issue is that AS A FEMALE – when you expect to have SPECIAL privileges and provisions extended to you ACTING AS AN OBJECT IS A GOOD THING. As an object if you get lost in the woods – MEN WILL COME LOOKING FOR YOU. That is beneficial to someone who acts as an object IN THAT SITUATION. If you are not seen as an object – MEN say – THAT PERSON CAN DO FOR THEMSELVES – which is EXACTLY how we treat boys. Boys don’t need help GIRLS DO!

    Look at the educational system. Who is failing? Who’s NOT been getting most of the attention? Who is ending up, unemployed, dead, or locked up? And yet STILL – you all insist that black women are the ULTIMATE VICTIM when it comes to being the oppressed CLASS!

    Let a man not be masculine enough, or NOT do as a woman desires, if he does not comply, she will file her complaint underneath the false guise of it being a male duty and proceed to call him a…

    Maggot with an F
    Witch with a B
    Coward
    Punk
    Weakling – and ACTUALLY call him the FEMALE ANATOMY – capital “P”

    So you tell me who is enforcing these gender norms? Is it REALLY men or is it WOMEN?

    Then you all wonder why we have so many CONFUSED black men out here who want to damn near BE WOMEN. Shoot – women get all the benefits – why be a man!? People are only going to hold you to these expectations and the minute you don’t measure up they either SLAM YOU for not measuring up or call you a SEXIST MALE PIG for living UP TO THEM.

    Look at the overall condition of the black community. It is this way because you lack REAL MEN in your community – but the reality is many of you don’t want REAL MEN – you want male servants who just like the STATE act responsibly but don’t interfere with whatever it is you are trying to do. You want them to live up to a structure (that’s to your benefit ONLY) but women don’t want to live up to anything the men desire or EXPECT – ESPECIALLY when they are EXPECTED AS MEN TO DO SO MUCH!

    Look at all the benefits that WHITE WOMEN GET that BLACK WOMEN JEALOUSLY WANT.

    Do you see white women TRYING TO COLLECTIVELY RUN THINGS OVER THERE? No, I didn’t think so. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Clearly, if you run it, men are not going to see you as OBJECTS that need protecting.

  • http://britnidanielle.com/ Britni Danielle

    Hey sis,

    Thanks for reading & responding. It’s the collective “we”…not just we women. Although I’ve heard many woman chastise men who “get in their feelings” as not being manly.

  • http://britnidanielle.com/ Britni Danielle

    I really, really appreciate this comment Paul. Just wanted to say that.

  • ?

    “sisters, learn what a a real man is and accept no substitutes.”

    Again we are placing the responsibility on the women. How about, men learn how to express your emotions without resorting to violence.

  • AM

    Dear Sir,

    I applaud you for your eloquence! I LOVE all that you have said, but disagree with you on some points, ESPECIALLY, where you mention black feminism. I’ll come back later to refute some of your points, BUT I pray that the girls engage with you in a civil manner, for you have opened the floodgates of what could potentially be a disastrous or a VERY engaging debate.

  • ?

    BWAHHHHH……HHHHHAAAAAAAAAA! Whew that was funny.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ryan.mega Ryan K. Mega

    two things. i don’t see the relevance, or relation to the story in KC. it looks like you are riding the wave and connecting it to an unfair argument. i guess i hate that i read this entire article. i feel dumber when i expect more from this site.

  • ed

    A year or so ago, a black woman in the state of Florida murdered her four black children by shooting them a total of 18 times. She then committed suicide. Is this a case of “conventional womanhood”?

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    i am amazed that you would twist my statement in that way. yes, the buyer does have to beware. there is a lot of rotten fruit out there. i am trying to warn women.

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    ^5

  • Drebin

    @Perspective – Great points I agree with everything you’ve written there.

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    perhaps you do not understand the words ‘real man’?

  • EST. 1986

    I think a lot of who we are isn’t because we are ‘wired differently’, but because of how we are socialized to be based on our gender.

  • AM

    +a milli

  • victoria

    Agreed. I dont see masculinity as a negative or as harmful. I dont think it’s masculinity that drives men to violence or possess homophobic views. I love that my husband is masculine. I am feminine. We compliment each other.

    IMO, it wasnt masculinity that drove him to kill her. Nor was it the fact that he was unable to be expressive. I believe it was a mental illness and/or domestic violence.

  • Anthony

    The story about him not letting his boy cry hit home wwith me. I was blessed to have had a loving father, but he certainly did not want me to be a “wimp.” I remember when I was older and O cried because I thought I did not get something I wanted for Christmas, my Dad gently, but firmly told me how disappointed he was in me that I cried. I guess if Dad could have seen me, he would have been proud, because I eventually buried him and my Mother without shedding one tear in public although I was completely torn up inside.

  • victoria

    Actually, many studies show that it is nature not nurture. We are truly wired differently.

    Nature vs nurture was the focus of topic in my child psychology course. I studied this topic quite a bit. And continued to do so throughout my teaching career.

  • Perspective

    These type of comments come from men who have no issue with women surpassing them. Have no issue with other races of men setting up shop in their community and extracting money OUT of the community. These type of comments come from me who WILL NOT defend the black community because they are soft.

    YES SOFT.

    If we didn’t live in a hostile world with other hostile groups of men who will conquer other men, their lands, and resources in order to bring back to THEIR OWN WOMEN and provide for THEIR FAMILIES, then sure, we could all hold hands sing Kumbiyah and have this WORLD of equality where when a building needs to be erected women are going to be down there pouring concrete with the men, RIGHT?!

    There are just certain things that I don’t look to women to do, shouldn’t expect women to do, and frankly, don’t want women to do. I do not want women on the front lines with me, and I don’t want them in the trenches with me.

    If a burglar breaks into the house I’m not going to grab two guns from the closet, throw her the other firearm and say, “Take the back, I’ll take the front!” WTF?!

    There really is no way that EQUALITY works between men and women. When you get men who see women as equal! CERTAIN things will simply not get done. Its NOT IN THEM to do it because they view women as CAPABLE, which sounds good, but when you recognize that WOMEN aren’t going to do certain things, THESE GUYS will literally sit around and WAIT for women to do it. You end up with men who won’t move, and women who have the ILLUSION OF POWER – but won’t move either. You can’t even charge them with the responsibility because THEY see it as a male duty.

    Please direct me to this community where men build, protect, and provide – where women are seen as EQUALS across the board. I think many women are living in a dream. They see society as ALREADY BUILT and ignore the fact that it has to be BUILT AND MAINTAINED by men. White society may be built but the black community MOST CERTAINLY IS NOT!

    Where are the women studying in fields that pertain to foundational building?

    The black community looks the way it does for a reason and it will continue to deteriorate as a result. Men are not going to do what is needed without impetus – it is entirely too much work, and they most certainly are not going to HAND OVER CONTROL to women, if they ever start and complete it. How is a woman going to have 50% say on something that women are incapable of doing themselves.

    Why are women incapable? I have no clue. My guess is that they are not SOCIALIZED to take on these areas – but the truth is – in addition to that, they really don’t want to.

    Black women are not going to push out out other groups. They just aren’t. There is nothing stopping them from doing it. The issue is they focus on MAGIC, HEARTS, RAINBOWS, AND LOVE – which doesn’t build anything.

    I’m not saying its not IMPORTANT, I’m saying that IT ALONE, does not build nor maintain a community.

    The more I hear women talk, the more they expose that they don’t understand REAL POWER, nor foundational building.

    WE EXIST IN A HOSTILE WORLD. You are not going to have a thriving black community in a world like this, CONTROLLED BY OTHER MEN – with WEAK MEN – who believe that

    “But not being a real man is a beautifully empowering thing if you can get there. It gives you not the power to hurt, or to control or to claim superiority – as empowerment is expressed in some circles, but the power to love.”

    I’m picturing a black man in a toto, a tiara, and a wand.

    While black men are talking this stupidness. White men and Chinese men are stealing the resources directly underneath Africans feet both economically and by force.

    SMH. What are black women doing against these threats?

    Nothing. If the threat of women are MEN – then the threat of MEN are OTHER MEN – if history hasn’t taught us that.

    Black women think this equality stuff is cool up until they get punched in the face by a police officer and THEIR BLACK MAN is too busy MEDITATING, SMELLING INCENSE, and reciting spoken word.

  • Sweetles

    I have learned not to “expect more from this site.”

  • Perspective

    “But not being a real man is a beautifully empowering thing if you can get there. It gives you not the power to hurt, or to control or to claim superiority – as empowerment is expressed in some circles, but the power to love.”

    I can’t believe you women co-sign this garbage and then have the audacity to COMPLAIN about the complacency of black men.

  • Chillyroad

    I think it’s unconventional manhood that’s problematic.

  • http://www.geekmommarants GeekMommaRants

    Thank you Britni! Agreed!! Love Clutch.

  • Treece

    While I agree 95% with what was said on the article, I don’t think this topic should be related to the murder of Kassandra Perkins. Simply b/c we don’t know enough about the circumstances of thier relationship or that incident to say that it had to do with society’s twisted views on masculinity. But i do agree that we live in a culture that teaches boys to devalue girls from an early age. We (society at large) teach boys that hitting, running, walking, even writing (yeah i actually heard someone make fun if a boy once for that) like a girl is the worst thing in the world. And therefore we teach them to look down on us. We (men and women) need to teach our boys to be more caring and considerate human beings.
    Yes, this mentality CAN lead to violence, but we do not know yet all (or even most) of the particulars of Belcher’s murder/suicide.

  • http://www.geekmommarants GeekMommaRants

    Sir,

    What makes your comments so annoying is you lack any knowledge of history! Role reversals in our community started in 1494! Yet, your comment blames black women for what started 500 hundred years ago. African Americans (gonna go there again) have as a great military leader (here it comes) a woman and NOT a man. When you can understand the history of your own people, you will start to sound smart, at least to women!!!

  • apple

    thank you for derailing this train off the tracks into the dark abyss called race gender and “love”

  • apple

    i suppose if you look at history and the atricitoies men have created on the world (war, rape, death) maybe you could blame that on manhood or maybe this guy was just f**king crazy.. or maybe he got hit in the head too much from football, aren’t alot of football players killing themselves because of the effect being hit too many times has the brain? or maybe its all of the above.. the thing that makes me think he was insane was that he shot himself in front of his coach and that other person, with no regard of how the living might feel about.. that drives it to a (marginally) new level of crazy for me for some reason

  • Sweetles

    “I can’t believe you women co-sign this garbage and then have the audacity to COMPLAIN about the complacency of black men.”

    I was thinking the same thing…

  • http://tontonmichel.tumblr.com Tonton Michel

    This tragedy has nothing to do with manhood. This was an act of murder committed by a deranged male. The idea that this is tied into manhood is absurd, what is going on here is an attempt to redefine what a man is to make them more mangable for those who have no idea what a real man is or choose not to adapt to it.

  • Perspective

    Role Reversal 1494?! So I guess this is referencing SLAVERY?

    Ummm, under slavery THERE ARE NO ROLES – NOR IS THERE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY because you are someone else’s property.

    Using your logic – We came out of slavery ROLE REVERSED

    Black people got married in the 90th percentile at the turn of the century with WOMEN AS THE HEAD.

    Tulsa Oklahoma was founded by a group of black women and Black Wall Street Thrived underneath FEMALE LEADERSHIP – same with Springfield Illinois and Rosewood Florida.

    Hell, the Civil Rights movement was founded and started by BLACK WOMEN – not black men.

    Marcus Garvey – You know it was his wife who ran things

    Malcolm X – You know it was his wife that who wrote all those speeches

    Let black women tell it – they’ve been HOLDING the “D” since we landed on these shores.

    Damn! Women like you make the choice to date non-black women so damn easy, and I really wish it wasn’t that easy.

    I wish I really had to rack my brain about it, but as soon as women start SPEWING their MYTHS about history as fact – I’m already looking for the exit.

  • paul

    I don’t see what people are not getting about this piece. I don’t think it’s an attack on manhood ie on men for being men, or “male culture” (whatever that is).

    If I’m reading it correctly, all that’s being asked is – is there a connection between conditioning to suppress “non-manly” emotions and the violent acts some men commit?

    I’d say yes, a very strong connection. Teaching men to bottle up their emotions when they’re hurting does indeed make them more likely to hurt others.

    why?

    using myself as an example – I always found it very hard to empathize with the pain of others, especially those who made a loud fuss. I couldn’t stand any “weakness” in myself and, consequently, couldn’t stand it in others

    Bottling up “non-manly” emotions like fear, insecurity – only leaves men with anger as an emotional outlet because the only emotion that it’s “manly” for a man to display is anger.

    Therefore anger is the emotion that gets nurtured most and that’s why anger is often the emotion you’ll meet first when you’re dealing with an insecure or fearful man.

    Stop telling men to man up or be real men. Let them learn how to become emotionally articulate.

  • http://britnidanielle.com/ Britni Danielle

    Exactly, Paul. Exactly.

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    i think you fail to know what a real man is….

  • ?

    Twist your statement? I quoted YOU! I get what you’re saying. Im just saying that we need to place responsibility on the perp.

  • The Bishop

    PREACH, we may not agree on everything but what you said about manhood is truth.

  • Do better

    You play up this combat/war/vigilante apsect WAY more than necessary. Do you live in Afghanistan? Or maybe you’re accessing Clutch from the Gaza Strip? LMFAO Stop watching movies and get real. You are never going to be on the front lines of anything. You’re just some dude typing away at his computer, obviously too angry and mentally disturbed to be in a relationship with a real live woman. All you preach is anger, hate, division, and egocentric nonsense. Give it a rest already please.

  • Do better

    You are SOOO GROSS!!! YES ad hominim I don’t care you ooze negativity! Go away!

  • http://gravatar.com/mimiandy1683 MimiLuvs

    Sorry for interrupting the flow. But, here we go… I’m going to do my best “Nathaniel J Brunson” impersonation right.
    Off topic:

    For the “men” commentators:
    Why do you visit Clutch?

    It’s a question that has been on my mind for a while. I knew that I needed to post this question on an article page, where I knew majority of the males would read it.

  • The Bishop

    Because it is a public blog about black women in which we can have a civil dialogue with black women about various topics /issues that affect them thus directly/indirectly affect black men of all walks of life. Knowledge and intelligence is sharpened through different points of view. Diversity of thought gives both sexes different view points, which can challenge, reaffirm, and/or evolve ones own stance of a particular topic. I have a question why do you ask?

  • p

    TRUTH in a lot you said IN THIIS COMMENT@perspective/sarge willie pete

    BUT what are YOU doing besides ANNOYING people here on Clutch? and I am a woman and I agree with some of the things you say on building community but WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

    Dont dismiss THIIS comment from this *person* Black women……hes making sense for once.

  • The Whole Truth

    @Perspective

    MOST Black feminist are actually buffet (pick and choose) feminist. Their type of feminism would never succeed w/o white liberals financing it by way of public aid.

  • http://gravatar.com/mimiandy1683 MimiLuvs

    I asked this question, because I believe that there are some individuals who sole purpose is to be antagonistic and to not have a civil dialogue.

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    my use of the term ‘real man’ is one who has control of his feelings.

    not suppress or repress but control. we all have feelings and emotions.

    a man controls his emotions his emotions do not control him.

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    “I believe that there are some individuals who sole purpose is to be antagonistic and to not have a civil dialogue”

    and they are always males?

  • The Whole Truth

    Antagonist aka question things, thoughts and behaviors that don’t work and have never worked in the black community that are accepted by blacks as beneficial and worthy of maintaining.

  • Seriously?

    [b]The only thing[/b] that makes a man is his genitals and genes. Everything else is simply “extra” added by humans definition of what they think a man is. Did i get this right?

  • Drebin

    @Perspective – watch this it features Tariq elite vs Pearl Jr, covering some of the points you write about, its very interesting.

  • The Whole Truth

    Ok, but who raised those boys/men and why are American Black Women considered by OTHER RACES the most aggressive, argumentative and violent group of women?

    We now know AS FACT after three generations that the majority of prisoners (70%) come from single parent homes. Who then do you think is running wild terrorizing the black community, and yes, beating up women? You see “I don’t need no man” and having kids before w/o the commitment of marriage has dire consequences for a community. Black women pre 1950′s, I believe, understood this. Which is why they had a higher marriage rate than white women. Do you really believe their life was worst than a young woman today aka Shanika, on public aid, never married with multiple kids by multiple men?

  • mr.vicious

    Tell that to the women in the middle east, tell that to the girls under going female circumcision by other women. BW in america are the most free in the world, freedom from accountability and government assistance to keep BM away.

    SMH at how spoiled that statement sounded…

  • http://gravatar.com/mimiandy1683 MimiLuvs

    I will admit, there are “women” on this site, whose comments also makes me go “hmmm”.
    But, I just find it interesting that there are a significant amount of male visitors on this site, which is a site whose targeted audience are women, in particular, WOC.

  • http://gravatar.com/mimiandy1683 MimiLuvs

    @The Whole Truth:

    So you’re not going to answer the question?

  • http://tontonmichel.tumblr.com Tonton Michel

    Naw, patna you dont get it, this tragedy has zero to deal with manhood yet it is being used to push this idea that certain dysfuntions displayed in society are tied into supposed male culture despite the eidene that has shown thatmen do not accept this behavior as normal. This man’s own teammates were shocked by his actions because they saw it as abnormal. Yet here we are being subjected to a written form of three card monte were the subject is really “what is wrong with you men,why wont you do and think the way I want you to.” There is nothing wrong with being fearful or insecure men have known this since the beginning of time what is not manly is letting those emotions rule you.

  • Seriously?

    My God! You say the same things over and over and over.

    And this objectification you speak of….go look at a Justin Timberlake video. Look at a Justin Beiber video or One Direction or Maroon 5. I don’t know why people don’t understand what black women are complaining about when they complain about being objectified. Compare how white women are objectified in these videos to how many videos have black women walking around and dancing like strippers. It’s a big difference! Is that so hard for people to understand. I’m pretty sure there are lots of black women who have NO problem with being portrayed as a love interest or doing some butt shaking. White women get to be love interests in music videos. Black women just get to be big booty ho*s. I don’t understand why people act as if they’re too stupid to understand the difference in the average level of objectification in a music video and the degradation of reducing a woman to her body parts that is in many hip hop videos. The average black woman I think isn’t complaining about dancing in the club like on Waka Flocka’s No Hands video. It is about being a big booty ho* or a b*tch.

    As for enforcing gender norms…YOU..REALLY…NEED…TO…STOP. Black men are the main ones calling other black men these terms.

    And black feminism….Please stop again. The majority of black women are not some radical feminists that hate marriage. Please stop spreading that stupid lie. Men like you talk to feminists (and these must be radical feminists because most feminists aren’t these ball busting alternative lifestyle women and men fish and bike feminists that hate marriage), and you say all feminists are radical and all black women are feminists. Again stop. The average black woman with no husband and no man has fallen victim to giving away the milk for free.

    And THAT is what is going on in African American communities. It is a lie to pretend that black women just sit around talking about how they don’t need men and let’s start a happy matriarchy and choose irresponsible men. It is a big LIE! It’s a big lie that men like you like to spread to lay ALL the problems of the black community on black women for being overbearing matriarchs because men shirk their responsibility. The majority of these women simply couldn’t get their men to buy the cow. They couldn’t get their men to put a ring on it. They couldn’t keep a man, and they are getting by. If you all want to know why the black community has gone to the dumps and the nuclear family doesn’t exist it is because too many men WON’T SETTLE DOWN. There is supposed to be societal pressure to make men settle down. Societal pressure FROM MEN! This is why white men get married more than black men not because white women are queens of femininity and black women just throw men away because they’re radical feminists. It is because they are pressured to get married and they do it! They’re pressured to not shirk responsibility. They’re pressured to raise their kids.

    This pressure does not exist in the African American community. And it never will as long as people make excuses and blame women for the erosion of manhood. Men don’t need women to “let them be a man.” That means that you’re weak. Men define the culture. They make the rules.

    And please tell me how many actual women do you meet in real life that don’t desire a husband? How many radical feminists do you run into that don’t date men or hate men or don’t think men are necessary in the family? You don’t even have to reply. I know it’s very few. I don’t really meet these black women that are that into feminism. I don’t meet these women that hate to be married to a man. Please stop spreading that ignorance. We grew up watching the same Disney movies as white girls.

    I’m so sick of this feminism excuse that men keep throwing out for why the black community is a mess. And you know what I’m not going to make excuses for black women. They keep having babies by men that they aren’t married to. This is a problem. But it’s a big problem that black men are impregnating women that they aren’t married to. It’s also a big problem that they aren’t involved in their kids lives. It’s a big problem that they don’t want to get married.

    Many men who are easily able to get a woman have no desire to get married. Many men who get the milk without buying the cow have no desire to make it legal. You can blame feminism all you want. It is African Americans (men and women) thinking that marriage is something that only white or Asian or non-African American black people do. African Americans think it’s perfectly normal to create families of illegitimate generation after generation. And there is no societal pressure for men to get married or for women to not have children outside of marriage. Maybe you should look at African American culture and the lack of shame and African American’s failure over the past decades to promote positive culture and shame people to fall in line.

    I understand why you might say feminism though. It makes it easy to say that all of these problems are caused not by men but by women not knowing their place. You want to be blameless. Well it is a coverup. White women not us are the queens of feminism. Why is it that they still have all of these things? It is because they have a positive culture that promotes positivity.

    Also it is easy to say that this all started with feminism because it was around the same time. It also makes you seem blameless. But this fracturing of black families happened with the loss of manufacturing jobs, welfare, and no man in the house rules. I mean black women don’t really get along with white women like that. I can’t imagine that back then the majority of poorer black women were ready to jump on some cause for middle class white women just because they thought it would be cool. Actually there are historical accounts of how black women yearned to be able to be housewives like white women after slavery and many did. The ones who didn’t had to work or were ambitious.

    Do you really think Kasandra Perkins and all these other women prefer to be baby mommas? You think these women prefer to be alone? You think they prefer to not have the extra help, the extra income, and companionship? Of course they do. You’re delusional. As I said we all watch the same Disney movies. Women think differently from men, and no matter how much you rant and rave about the minority of radical feminists, many of us would like to be married and have a family. I mean I really want to meet all these black feminists that you men keep talking about.

    I don’t even know why I replied to you because you’re going to reply back with the same “it’s not my fault” rant. You must have these things saved on a computer somewhere and you just copy and paste.

  • http://gravatar.com/nolakiss16 binks

    This! I am tired of all these articles and opinions from all these outlets trying to come up with 101 excuses for Belcher’s senseless behavior. Call a spade a freaking spade here. If Belcher had the tools to deal with his violent behavior (which one can argue he did because sports associations have therapist and staff on their teams to test and catch mental illness or issues) he would have probably STILL killed her so…what’s the next line of hindsight excuses…sighs

  • Keepitreal

    Yes because womanhood is often associated with killing children. WTF? Try again, lady.

  • KnowYourHistory

    Out of ALL the comments to this particular article. YOUR comment was the absolutely MOST WISE, and speaks volumes, succinctly, and eloquently. There are kind, loving, nurturing men; and selfish, irresponsible, mean and bullying women, and certainly vice versa. IMO, most of the behavior that we exhibit in order to adhere to gender-form “social norms’ aren’t “wired” biology at all, they are mere SOCIAL CONSTRUCT.

  • KnowYourHistory

    With you most of the way there Paul; I’m totally into non-trad male roles. You did, however, leave out an uber-important reality: the vast majority, IMO, of AA WOMEN (and, um, AA moms) have, historically, embraced this damaging “real man” philosophy.
    I think the ENTIRE AA community should be addressed regarding this distorted, destructive mindview within the AA experience. What say you?

  • Perspective

    (Rolling my eyes)

    Ok – way too far – Paul is Britini pretending to be a dude and then cosigning her own self and or another woman on clutch pretending to be a dude. DUDES don’t even talk like that.

    smh

    U already did it once. I wasn’t going to say anything – bu here you are doing it twice

  • Perspective

    @Drebin – ha – she’s the EXACT type of black woman I talk about. Tariq is doing an OK job but he’s not doing the best at addressing her points.

    He’s not breaking it down to the least common denominator

    Example – she says black women are not valued nor protected by black men.

    Response: Black men aren’t passing anything on and as a result black women have no more value than any other race of woman.

    Black women really think women are valued intrinsically. If black men aren’t passing anything on, creating a community, and keeping it in the BC – it doesn’t matter where he puts his seed.

    Women jump and say YEA!!!!! you don’t value us, that’s right – the black man is messed up, but then ignore the fact that many of them aren’t trying to subscribe to any structure when men are in control and pass on legacies through black women.

    This is where Tariq should have taken it.

    She’s saying a lot of cliche BW stuff.

    Like when she talked about black men not being the financial head – Tariq should have pointed out how sistas don’t want dudes to be the head because they literally believe that black women should be in charge – and will AVOID established dudes because they recognize that a man with that type of money or power will be too much in the position to tell her what to do or direct the relationship.

    This is why many black women prefer to choose men who are beneath them.

    This however comes at a consequence to the whole community.

    What can a man who knows nothing about foundational building teach his SON about foundational building – NOTHING.

    Since many black women are not looking for black men to be in that sort of position because they see themselves as the head, they will choose men based on other things, such as swag and PIPE LAYING SKILLS. Basically, everything that has nothing to do with his ability to build nor maintain the black community.

    This has been happening exponentially among black women for decades. Again it should be no wonder why the black community looks the way it looks.

    Talk to a bunch of women about male responsibility – they will CHEER.

    Talk to them about male leadership – they buckle and cringe – yet still expect certain things to get accomplished – exclusively by MEN.

    Women can do anything men can do – unless of course ditches have to be dug, snow has to be removed, a building has to be renovated in the BC, or any type of job that requires physical labor.

    You will never see a black woman try to jump in the kitchen fast enough – as soon as you try to hand them a dirty shovel.

    “Oh….. ha ha….Oh you men enjoy that. I’ll be right here supporting you guys, making sandwiches!”

    Sure she wants to make sandwiches NOW once she sees how grueling all that MAN WORK IS.

    Sure there are women out here who are JUST as bout it as the men – but WOMEN COLLECTIVELY – come on now… That’s a joke.

    If sistas won’t even go to the gym, do you really think they are going to show up to build a black community center?

    I’m not sayin that to put them DOWN. I’m saying that because we have women who talk ISH as if – there is some MOVEMENT of black women getting read to break ground and create the next wave of black businesses in the BC hiring young men and women. Its a joke. I’ve done the math on this. Women are not about to mobilize to take men’s places in certain arenas that aren’t air conditioned offices.

  • http://theogk.wordpress.com Kelly Hawkins

    This comment is the total OPPOSITE of my beliefs. But, your points made me stop and think. Seems like we need to find that happy medium, because our society IS imbalanced. Maybe women do need to get back to nurturing, but not in a “rainbows and sparkles” way, in a powerful, leader type of way. Mastering that could balance out the “Macho-ness” of the world. Standing side by side with men without trying to walk in their shoes might be the way to go. Get what I’m sayin?

  • Humanista

    I don’t think it’s acceptable for any adult person to allow their emotions to rule them, including women. That’s simply not mature. Meanwhile, there are many men who are hailed as “real men” who are controlled by anger…as if anger is not an emotion. Just as unhealthy.

  • paul

    @perspective

    “I always found it very hard to empathize with the pain of others, especially those who made a loud fuss.”

    I’m trying to change, to be more tolerant especially when black people piss me off.

    Coz black on black intolerance is why things escalate to black on black violence so often with us

    You see – I’m just as concerned about black on violence violence as any other violence that victimizes blacks.

    So on this occasion, despite your disrespectfulness I’m not gonna show you and everyone else how much bigger, badder and more of a man (in your terms) I am than you.

    Let them think you’re the real man and I’m the p~ssy coz I’m the one who backed down.

    One of us has to look “weak” so that both of us can live.

    right?

  • kamille

    I think the protection you talk about that’s lacking from black men is a result of self-hate not the erosion of manhood. The hip hop/thug culture of ‘niggas/niggettes’ speaks to this. Everybody hates ‘niggers’, so to speak, so it would make sense that they hate themselves, call each other ‘niggers’ and engage in this hypermasculine destructive thug culture. Black women were never protected, why? Because black men could never protect their damn selves! The most obvious example-slavery, which of course no one is saying they’re to ‘blame’ or ‘less of man’-but I’m citing history. The fact that during the share-croppers era and later on to factory jobs, black men couldn’t protect themselves more than they could protect black women. Sure, we had black business, but what was to stop white people (men) to come in and buy up that land, or simply lynch you, which is what they did anyway. This talk or definition of manhood shouldn’t rest on the protection of black women/community because if you REALLY look at it. We have, never had, resources to truly be secure or protect ourselves because we live under a white capitalist, supremacist nation.

    What does that have to do with protection? Well black men kill other black men in LARGE! You can’t even protect your own damn selves because you’re caught up in a hypermasculine culture/poverty/self hatred. Perspective when are you going to realize that you just TRULY HATE black women. I’ve heard you mention on GenX (as sarge willie pete) that you have ‘little love if any for sistas’. ‘Brotha’, just admit that you hate us and set yourself free.

  • kamille

    @Perspective

    You make it seem like it’s an insult/or a big loss for black women if you date other races of women. Please do. No one needs an egocentric maniac. Good luck finding a woman, period, to date you. From listening to you on Gen-X and reading your comments, it sounds like you’re prone to anxiety disorders and maybe bouts of depression. The fact that you scream into your videos to make points, isn’t healthy. You’re not threatening black women in any way with the ‘imma date other races of women’ card. I feel (as a black woman) that you owe me nor anyone else an explanation.

  • Billy Paul

    Preach!

  • Billy Paul

    “but because of how we are socialized to be based on our gender”

    Every society past and present socializes its inhabitants. It is through socialization that one learns, for example, values, morals, gender roles, ect.

    Is your point that socialization along gender lines is wrong?

    One may argue that the average women wants a man partly because he is a male and is rarely looking for a unisex partner. However, simply having a penis does not make a male a man, there is something more to the definition than that. It is that “something” that society/family/community teaches.

    On the other hand, one does not see this at work relative to the definition of a woman, which is substantially related to her physiology.

    Therefore, I posit that socialization along gender lines may not entirely be a negative proposition.

    Carry on, Family.

  • Ask_ME

    @Perspective

    “Hell, the Civil Rights movement was founded and started by BLACK WOMEN – not black men.”

    Ummm, IT WAS FOUNDED BY BLACK WOMEN. The bus boycott was started by BLACK WOMEN, who were the majority of the people riding the bus during that time. There were several organizations of black women who got the ball moving with that boycott.

    Black men, the preachers of various churches got together and picked a leader. The man they (the men) picked was Martin Luther King Jr., and he was winner up. The man they originally wanted was Ralph David Abernathy, but he was in the midst of a having an affair, which would have been great information for their critics.

    A little fact checking wouldn’t hurt when spewing your nonsense.

    There was Emmitt Till’s mother, who decided to open his casket for the world to see.

    Also, places like Tulsa were NOT common. Yes, there were towns of black folks however those black people were almost always dependent upon the surrounding white community for everything from jobs to groceries. It wasn’t uncommon for black women to be the sole providers of their families even with black men IN the home because the men had a harder time finding and keeping a job. So, yes often times, in the black community, the roles have been reversed.

  • paul

    Knowyourhistory

    “With you most of the way there Paul; I’m totally into non-trad male roles. You did, however, leave out an uber-important reality: the vast majority, IMO, of AA WOMEN (and, um, AA moms) have, historically, embraced this damaging “real man” philosophy.
    I think the ENTIRE AA community should be addressed regarding this distorted, destructive mindview within the AA experience. What say you?”

    Well I don’t think I singled out any section of the BC as being singularly responsible for any of the undesirable attitudes that prevail among us, and I don’t want take it upon myself to “address” black men or black women, especially when I myself am a work in progress.

    I think we’re all tired of people addressing us at this point, let’s have dialogue instead.

    Dialogue is better and better served by those of us who see things differently proposing alternative ways of thinking about how we relate to each other.

    This piece does what you’re asking me – it asks us to think about how each of us may be responsible for propagating unhealthy ideas around masculinity and femininity.

    That’s what we’re talking about here – no doubt Kassandra’s attraction to Javon was rooted in her conditioning to seek out hyper masculine males who embody or exhibit REAL MAN-ness. Javon’s REAL MAN-ness was built on a notion of manhood that only allows a man to be a tough guy.

    It killed them both.

    Javon’s manhood wouldn’t have been compromised if he was taught – by all of us – that manhood is about ethical conduct – empathy, compassion, vulnerability, non-violence, tenderness, LOVE – as well as physicalstrength and all the other “masculine virtues”. On the contrary, his manhood would have been enhanced and maybe Javon and Kassandra would still be alive.

  • Perspective

    I’ve said it before – a lot of sistas just want to co-sign themselves to death.

    JUST GIVING EACH OTHER BAD ADVICE – that relates to men – only to complain that later on – they can’t understand why they are having issues with men.

    50% of the discussions on this site pertain to black men – yet they don’t want black men in the conversation.

    Then some of you wonder why some brothas say F it – and jump the fence.

    If that’s your attitude – WHAT’S THE POINT IN MEN EVEN SAYING ANYTHING AT ALL.

    Then they Jump – and then comes the “Why are you brothas over there – your mother’s black!”

    As if my mother being black has anything to do with getting away from a group of women who won’t even allow, and/or don’t want my opinion on things that pertain to us potentially ever having a relationship.

    Its insanity.

  • Perspective

    Oh i know it. Which is why I call it a pseudo-matriarchy

  • Billy Paul

    Indeed, the most eloquent response, yet.

  • Perspective

    @ Kelly.

    I don’t get what you are saying because at the end of the day – WOMEN don’t build anything.

    On top of the fact that women bare the children and men are supposed to defend and protect against other hostile groups of men.

    That’s just the way it is and should be – although it’s not that way in the black community.

    You contradict yourself. At the end you say – “standing side by side” with the black man

    but in the middle you said women need to get back to nurturing in a ‘POWERFUL AND LEADING type of way’

    Again – black women do not build anything – and women WILL NOT BE LEADING WHAT THEY DO NOT BUILD NOR CREATE THEMSELVES.

    Men are not going to go out here and establish a BLACK infrastructure in the black community and then simply HAND IT OVER TO WOMEN – or allow women to have 50% say in what THEY don’t even know how to build.

    Its like women who say – “Mentor my son” and then try to REGULATE how I would go about teaching the boy how to be a man.

    How the hell is she going to REGULATE/MANAGE/DIRECT/ OR LEAD that which she doesn’t know?

    The bottom line is that a lot of black women are not being chosen because they want to FIGURE out some way to RUN THE RELATIONSHIP and if that means getting with a black man who is intellectually or financially not their equivalent – they will do it – and then MAN-STROKE the man into ‘BELIEVING’ he’s in the “MAN” position when he is NOT.

    Then you all complain about the number of broke ninjas trying to assert themselves as men over you.

    Also, if a man is not in the position to control his household. He is not in the position to teach his son anything about FOUNDATIONAL BUILDING – because remember, women don’t build. Not only that, he is also not in the position to GO UP AGAINST WHITE SUPREMACY.

    Black men are ill prepared and ill-equipped to do what is needed in the black community and many of you women are so busy vying for power that you don’t see how you all are interfering with the very production of strong men, who KNOW HOW TO BUILD, and generally KNOW what they are doing because you want them DUMBED DOWN – so that they can’t control you.

    Stupid thing is – LOOOK AT THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

    Do you see any maintenance or building going on? Let you hot water stop running, and I bet its a white man who shows up to fix it.

    Not a black man – and MOST CERTAINLY not a black woman!

    This is how many of you have wanted to conduct the community. Take a good look at it.

    Black women would rather be the QUEEN of the landfill than the PRINCESS OF ZUMUNDA!

    Men are not going to build what they can’t control and pass on through black women, and men are not going to allow women to CONTROL what they DON’T have to be RESPONSIBLE FOR, nor even know how to BUILD NOR MAINTAIN.

  • Billy Paul

    “Ironically, this article proves there is a war on men. A topic that this same author disagreed with her other article about a week ago.”

    I concur, wholeheartedly.

    In light of the fact that there is a “war on men”, one arguably should preemptively strike unexpectedly with overwhelming fire power as the gentleman above has.

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    there is much anger in the black community. a lot of that anger is mis directed. the key is to control and direct the anger. a ‘real man’ is not controlled by his emotions.

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    “Black men are making babies”

    i think it takes two to ‘make’ a baby….

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    “Did i get this right?”

    no…

  • Perspective

    Thank you – some SANITY in the room

  • Perspective

    @ Paul

    Paul is a black woman pretending to be a black man AGAIN.

    I mean really… The lengths to which black men women go to TRY AND BE RIGHT co-sign themselves to death.

    Samen women talking about “what real man is – TO MATRIARCHAL SPECIFICATIONS!”

    = A simp!

    ARE THE SAME WOMEN – who will role right over to WHITE PATRIARCHAL MANHOOD – SAY WHITE WOMEN ARE OPPRESSED – then turn right around with that same idea of MANHOOD – and then file complaints about what black men AREN’T DOING FOR THEIR WOMEN – compared to what SEXIST, CONTROLLING, DOMINATING, WHITE MALES ARE DOING FOR THEIR WOMEN.

    When it’s convenient – Black men should be doing EXACTLY what other patriarchal men should be doing.

    When its not convenient – “we are being destructive men with our rigid real men mentalities”

    Yea… Women defining the ROLES of men – SURE SOUNDS LIKE A MATRIARCHY TO ME.

  • Seriously?

    so then what executes as a real man? Anything you can possibly virtually say can be also apply to female thus making it a human issue and not a sex issue. So then it wouldn’t it be wise to never say things such as “that’s what a real man does” rather “that’s what a good person do” ?

  • Perspective

    @ KAMILLA –

    “I feel (as a black woman) that you owe me nor anyone else an explanation.”

    Oh then feel free to please keep black men’s names (in general) out of your mouths, and stop filing complaints about what they WON’T do for you – but will do for other women.

    Please feel free to go find happiness on your own terms without brothas. There is no blockade of black men stopping you, last time I checked.

    @ Ask me.

    The Civil Rights Movement started way before BUS BOYCOTTING.

    Damn you women do not know your history.

    Women like you will champion Rosa Parks – (who wasn’t really all that black) and say nothing of Booker T. Spicely. Same situation only he died about 20 years earlier.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Spicely

    Sure there were quite a few notable black women when it came to the civil rights movement, but by no means were they SPEARHEADING the movement.

    Ella Baker
    Daisy Bates
    Fannie Lou Hamer
    Lola Hendricks
    Nellie Stone Johnson
    Dorothy Cotton

    See I can spit names.

    Please direct me to the black female civil rights leaders who ended up DEAD.

    Please direct me to the black female civil rights leaders who were deported.

    As I have stated – BLACK WOMEN weren’t on the front lines like that.

    I’m not knocking their contribution – I’m just pointing out how DELUSIONAL and MYTHOLOGICAL black women get about their own history.

    When it doubt – MAKE IT UP! As a black man you gotta love black women’s “WE ARE MORE BADASS THAN OUR OWN MEN” mindset. (sarcasm)

    Also there were many MORE independent black communities, DURING SEGREGATION than AFTER. I didn’t say anything about TULSA being completely independent from the white system. There is no group in America that is completely independent from the white system, but what black men did was take the money that they got from white jobs, and began starting their own businesses serving their own people AND hiring their own to operate in those businesses – SUCH AS the all black cab/bus company that Tula had which created one of the first black millionaires in the region.

    “It wasn’t uncommon for black women to be the sole providers of their families even with black men IN the home because the men had a harder time finding and keeping a job. So, yes often times, in the black community, the roles have been reversed.”

    Where do you get this INFORMATION – its like you just make it up – and people actually eat this garbage.

    THE TRUTH

    “African-American ghettos also started out well, economically. In the Midwest, ghettos were built on high wages from manufacturing jobs. In New York City, the housing was superb. Developers in Harlem had built state-of-the-art apartment buildings around the new subway extension for upwardly mobile whites, writes historian Gilbert Osofsky. But they overbuilt, and entrepreneurial real estate agents, of both races, quickly filled vacant units with blacks. By the end of the 1920s, Harlem was home to the nation’s largest concentration of African-Americans. Migrants from the South, to use Nicholas Lemann’s phrase, generally had come to see Northern ghettos as “the promised land.”

    “Economic conditions in African-American ghettos have deteriorated quite sharply over the past three and a half decades. The inner city, which once might have looked like a promised land, doesn’t much resemble one today…”

    This notion that you have that black women were, always have, and still do make more money than black men is patently false in combination with you idea of the absence of the black man in the home. The close we get to slavery the higher the marriage rate.

    “In the 1950s, after at least seventy years of rough parity, African American marriage rates began to fall behind white rates.”

    http://media.hoover.org/sites/default/files/documents/0817998721_95.pdf

    This is just one of many links. I obviously can’t post them all on this forum.

    @ Ask Me – Your facts are all jacked up.

  • Mimi

    I dont really know how true this is. I dont think that all women want a man to be “sensitive”. Being able to express you emotions is key in all healthy relationships. Perhaps if this young man was struggling with some issues, but was comfortable enough to expressive them and seek help this wouldn’t have happened? Of course, this problem is usually perscribed to men but it happens very frequently with black women as well. We are kind of taught to surpress all emotion expect anger and sexuality.

  • Patricia

    Interesting topic. I just wanted to admit..

    I am guilty of telling men to “man up”. However, my definition for “man up” is taking responsibilities for your life and choices. I do not consider a man as weak if he is sentimental and express his emotions. He has a right to voice how he feels just like women do. If [anyone] is a whiner regardless of where they come from, race, gender, or socio-economic status, now I will consider that person as weak. Sooner or later, that person has to step up and make something happen. I think I am hard on men because I am not accustomed to a lazy, non-working man, a man who carries himself as lazy or the type of men waiting on someone else to do the job. The majority of these men I described are the head of their households. Any other type of man simply doesn’t have the guts. This is NOT taking away from the partnership of marriage, but building together – - (at the same time) “a man” will not allow their partner to “carry” the burden of maintaining the household. He holds himself as accountable. As matter of fact, a “real man’s manhood” will not allow him to. This is where I think the “problem” comes into play as it relates to masculine men and domestic violence.

    In actuality, muscularity has nothing to do with domestic violence. Men who have “bottled up” their emotions misuse muscularity as over compensating to prove their manhood. If not thru a physically, verbally or emotionally; and or sexually abuse, this dysfunction will emerge via one outlet or another. By being told, be tough, men do not cry, man up majority of their lives, “conventional manhood” has become somewhat of a mental reversed dysfunction. The difference is these men or young boys are being conveyed this message without being taught how to be a man or what a “real man” is. So by the time, he reaches adulthood (internally) he is still a young man (boy) not knowing how to express his emotions; at the same time, tries to prove HIS manhood. He doesn’t know how to be a man then his wife/partner becomes irate and frustrated because she expects more, he retaliates through various forms of abuse to prove his “misdirected manhood”. Some of the ladies are not realizing this culture because they were exposed to its similarity during their childhood. The cycle of abuse continues.

    Black men have always been told “man up” throughout history. Well that is our terminology for today, but during our historical times. Black young males were told as early as 12/13 – “you are a man now”. With that, they were already aware they had to be tough (strong), work twice as hard, and expect no handouts. Conflict existed, but they were man enough to walk away. It was pride within being a man and obvious shame if you weren’t capable of protecting and providing for your family. It was respect. Now respect is attached to “my girl can do it”. We can. but The point is what type of man would brag about it? So when it comes to them proving their “so-called” manhood, it usually ends up with a fight gun or some other type of weapon. Yes, I tell men to “man up”. I could never tolerate a half-do spirit. If I become emotional..I cry, but a tissue must be nearby. Why? I don’t have the luxury to keep crying. I have to wipe my tears, step-up, and keeping going. I do agree men should learn how to express their emotions so less murders and abuse situations will occur. At the same time, more men have to learn how to handle conflict and take care of business. The only way to build up is to man up. Until these actions take place, our community will continue to suffer. WE need both: men and women.

  • Perspective

    @ Seriously – I’m going to address all of your points. I got time…

    “My God! You say the same things over and over and over.

    And this objectification you speak of….go look at a Justin Timberlake video. Look at a Justin Beiber video or One Direction or Maroon 5. I don’t know why people don’t understand what black women are complaining about when they complain about being objectified. Compare how white women are objectified in these videos to how many videos have black women walking around and dancing like strippers. It’s a big difference!”

    WHISTLE BLOW!!!!! FLAG ON THE PLAY!!!!!

    Nice try Apples to Oranges!

    If you are going to bring up WHITE R&B artist – THEN BRING UP BLACK R&B artist – AKA LOVE SONGS!!!!

    Don’t sit up here and try to SLICKLY slip by a comparison to GANGSTER RAP TO WHITE BOYS SINGING LOVE SONGS

    Apples to Apples! Please

    “Black men are the main ones calling other black men these terms.”

    Why wouldn’t black men call other black men those terms – THAT IS THE CULTURE that everyone is embracing. Women just want to turn it off when it’s convenient; when manhood starts trying to LEAD is when women don’t like it.

    Most black women are feminist. I wouldn’t say EXTREME feminist – those are the real radical elements, but these radical elements like the Alice Walkers have gone mainstream among black women. The man-haters grow by the day. The problem is that EXTREME FEMINISM has become synonymous with black female identity. Now, if you are a feminist black woman, to some degree – something is wrong with you.

    ” let’s start a happy matriarchy and choose irresponsible men. It is a big LIE! It’s a big lie that men like you like to spread to lay ALL the problems of the black community on black women for being overbearing matriarchs because men shirk their responsibility.”

    Unfortunately, it’s not a lie. I have seen it with my own eyes. I have asked women who’s husbands make more “other questions” and it comes out. “Ain’t no man gonna control me!” With that attitude – she is NOT going to want to get with a man who HAS POWER = MONEY who can call the shots more than she can. PERIOD. This is not rocket science. They will avoid those men. They won’t say – OH I WANT A LOSER, but they WILL dismiss me who are more established than they are in favor of those who can stand on their own as to not be a leech, but not so self sufficient that he’s not dependent on her. I’ve seen it an heard it with my own eyes and ears.

    “I didn’t want a man who could out think me!” as the woman said on the blogtalkradioshow.

    That my dear, comes at a PRICE!

    ” If you all want to know why the black community has gone to the dumps and the nuclear family doesn’t exist it is because too many men WON’T SETTLE DOWN. There is supposed to be societal pressure to make men settle down. Societal pressure FROM MEN! This is why white men get married more than black men not because white women are queens of femininity and black women just throw men away because they’re radical feminists. It is because they are pressured to get married and they do it! They’re pressured to not shirk responsibility. They’re pressured to raise their kids.”

    Ummm Hello! Earth to Black woman! Earth to Black woman.

    Those pressures come directly from the ALREADY BUILT PATRIARCHAL STRUCTURE THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO MAINTAIN. White men are passing on what they have built through COOPERATIVE white women to their children, which is why white women are valued. White women are not TRYING TO CONTROL OR RUN THAT SITUATION. If you don’t have that type of MALE DOMINATE structure in your community. You are NOT going to have those types of pressures.

    Again – here we go again with black women painting the white community AS THE EXAMPLE – but then ignoring the very structure under which they exist that black women abhor.

    “And please tell me how many actual women do you meet in real life that don’t desire a husband? How many radical feminists do you run into that don’t date men or hate men or don’t think men are necessary in the family? You don’t even have to reply. I know it’s very few. I don’t really meet these black women that are that into feminism. I don’t meet these women that hate to be married to a man.”

    You are correct, I don’t meet black women who don’t want to be married – TO MATRIARCHAL SPECIFICATIONS, But to patriarchal specifications – OH HELL YEA I DO. Women want the title, the validation, the social prestige that comes with marriage but they don’t want what is supposed to COME with marriage which is their position as women. Men are supposed to play theirs (which is all the responsibility) but women have the freedom to object at any time and do what they want. Men are not going to line up for some mess like that.

    “But it’s a big problem that black men are impregnating women that they aren’t married to. It’s also a big problem that they aren’t involved in their kids lives. It’s a big problem that they don’t want to get married.”

    What are you expecting from a group of men who shouldn’t have been chosen to be the biological fathers in the FIRST PLACE?

    If you could choose a random idiot and have a baby by him – consequence free – because he would just suddenly transform and become A REAL MAN – we wouldn’t even be having this discussion, now would we?

    Everything you are saying about black men not wanting to get married has everything to do with there be no patriarchal structure and men are not passing anything on. I don’t understand why its so hard for you to make that connection. This concept of marriage being about love is FALSE. Marriage was never about LOVE it was an institution. You don’t need to get married in order to be in love – but you do need to get married in order to have a legacy that is attached to a social societal structure.

    I didn’t say men were BLAMELESS – but women are the ones exclusively raising the very men that they complain about. You would think that with that type of oversight and control – we’d have the type of black men that black women dream about. They are coming out of your factories with little to no resources because women think that love, hugs, and rainbows are ENOUGH. I keep pointing out that black women know nothing about foundational building and how you actually maintain structure. You throw these boys out here with these expectations of manhood that they can’t meet because they don’t have the necessary tools and then you SLAM them for not meeting the requirements. Its asinine.

    Yes, I already know about the loss of manufacturing and welfare. A man can’t rule the house if he’s out of a job – PERIOD! That is not black women’s fault.

    I think black women were duped into thinking that they had the same grievances as white women. That they were somehow being oppressed by black men when black men never had that type of power anyway. What black men were in the position to hire black women like that and deny them the same wages? Get real.

    Not all white women did not work. You are talking about the upper middle class white women. White women worked as secretaries, nurses, and in textile mills during the era you speak of.

    “Do you really think Kasandra Perkins and all these other women prefer to be baby mommas? You think these women prefer to be alone? ”

    As Nia Long said on the view – SHE THOUGHT SHE COULD DO IT ALONE – so she went ahead and DID!

    ” I mean I really want to meet all these black feminists that you men keep talking about.”

    They are right here on the page, I direct you to Kelly’s comment.

  • Perspective

    Nice try sounding like a dude. I thought the “Coz” added a nice dramatic effect.

  • LadyP

    Very true!

  • Perspective

    Women can do anything men can do – unless of course ditches have to be dug, snow has to be removed, a building has to be renovated in the BC, or any type of job that requires physical labor.
    You will never see a black woman try to jump in the kitchen faster than as soon as you try to hand them a dirty shovel.
    “Oh….. ha ha….Oh you men enjoy that. I’ll be right here supporting you guys, making sandwiches!”
    Sure she wants to make sandwiches NOW once she sees how grueling all that MAN WORK IS.
    … and don’t get it twisted, I very much appreciate the sandwiches and classes of Koolaid, but I know for damn sure MOST woman would rather be in the kitchen than in the trenches digging ditches anyday, regardless of the shit they talk. I do grow tired of the “YOU CAN’T STOP US; WE CAN DO ANYTHING A MAN CAN DO!” mentality, only for women to hesitate the minute you hand them some combat boots, overalls, and a dirty shovel. Hand women a dirty shovel, MOST (not all), but MOST will get real quiet. The smart ones know, and will cheerlead you from the bleachers understanding, that whatever the men FINISH – it is theirs! They also know that most men really aren’t trying to put in all that work to cruise alone. Its like guy once told me, “What’s the point of working hard to have a Corvette without a fly babe in the passenger seat?” The stupid ones try kick you out the driver seat think they are going grab the steering wheel. The other way these women get around this, is pulling up in their own Vette and then asking men if they want a ride. I advise against men from entering into this situation. The really stupid thing is some women believe that a man is going to wax, polish, and maintain her Vette as if it was his own. A man cannot be a renters and ACT like an OWNER. Renters act like renter. Owners act like owners.

  • Perspective

    Lol – I love it

    “Black women were never protected, why? Because black men could never protect their damn selves!”

    So please explain to me the need for black women to adopt feminism – because according to so many black men were oppressing black women – but apparently we weren’t strong enough to defend ourselves or black women.

    Continue…

  • Yb

    I remember when Clutch used to be a website for black women. *sigh*

  • Perspective

    “You can’t even protect your own damn selves because you’re caught up in a hypermasculine culture/poverty/self hatred.”

    So your resolution is a matriarchal structure?

    “Sure, we had black business, but what was to stop white people (men) to come in and buy up that land, or simply lynch you, which is what they did anyway.”

    You know what’s funny is that these supposed WEAK PATRIARCHAL black communities – white men felt threatened enough to burn them down.

    Interesting, I never see them trying to burn down these MATRIARCHAL black communities that we’ve had for quite sometime.

    Hmmm, I wonder why.

    Perhaps it’s because they are not a threat!

  • Perspective

    Yea, I remember those days of co-signing themselves into oblivion and then writing articles like Jamilah L – who boldly starts with the introduction.

    “I’m a stauch feminist!”

    Then dives into how black men prefer light skinned women.

    Yea because you know brothas just wake up in the morning – AHHHHHH you know what I’m in the mood for – a STAUNCH FEMINIST.

    Yea man, A STAUNCH FEMINIST – that’s what I’m looking for.

    Commercial:

    I can hear the Folgers Crystals music playing in the back ground. Brotha wakes up to the STENCH of feminism with a smile on his face.

    Runs into the kitchen and opens up a can of STAUNCH FEMINISM. (It actually says SF on the side of the can) Made from only the purist of man-haters. Straight from the urban concrete jungles of the black community where feminism couldn’t get any stronger. The brotha sniffs the can – DEEP INHALE – “Ahhhhhhhh!!!!! The best way to start off your morning – belligerence and attitude!”

  • Hmm..

    “unless of course ditches have to be dug, snow has to be removed, a building has to be renovated in the BC, or any type of job that requires physical labor. You will never see a black woman try to jump in the kitchen faster than as soon as you try to hand them a dirty shovel.”

    Well, I just wanted to add I will already be in the kitchen. I will choose that over digging a ditch, snow being removed, etc…Once you finish, I would want you to have something to eat to regain your strength. If you pay someone to do it (similar to my ex), we both will be in the kitchen while hired help is taking care of those areas. I could do it, but I won’t. The same goes for lawncare.. #teamwork.

    Now I can take care of my own car or a detailer could.

  • Yb

    Lmaoooo Which black community do you live in where black men are doing all this work for black women. You must live in Africa or the Carribbean huh?

    Cause in the Black American community, the one where black women rely on themselves we already do all this. In one of the old black neighborhoods (South side of Chicago) I lived in I saw black women shoveling snow off their walk ways and porches, taking out the trash, changing their tires, and even repairing their roofs after snow storms. Traditional gender roles NEVER existed in the black American community. Slaverly is a glaring example of that. And the gender roles your ass thinks existed in Africa before we were taken, didn’t even exist. European influence brought upon the current gender roles you see in various see in Africa, so don’t even start with that “in Africa women listened and blah blah” bullshit you pseudo black male intellectuals try to bring up.

    In one comment you argue that black males gain nothing from help black women, and not their renovating our houses and raising our property value. Negro GTFOH with your indecisive bullshit and get a motherfucking clue.

  • __A

    @Perspective – Grow up. This person Paul has been commenting on here before you decided to show up and blow up the Clutch comment section with your tired comments.

    What black women think white women are oppressed? You and Tariq Nasheed. I listened to about 3 minutes of the video and had to stop listening after he said that black women and white men were the most free people in this country and that white women were oppressed by being held away from black men. I can’t begin to tell you how I LOLed after hearing that. When a black man says that the most pedestalized, privileged, and protected group of people in this country no in the WORLD is oppressed, I can’t even listen anymore. He’s obviously out of his mind. I think he’s one of those black men that likes to see black men and white women as victims of de evil white man and de evil black woman to make it seem like the partners of each race are too evil, so black men and white women should just pair up because they are the good people in this country. I’m laughing as I type this because that comment he made is just absurd. And he said that Oprah Winfrey, Madam CJ Walker, and Condoleeza Rice are proof that black women are powerful and can do what they want. Lolz!!!! I can’t believe that people listen to his videos. The women on this site should listen to like the first 5 minutes of his video though to hear the craziness that guys like this spit out.

    And you have the nerve to talk about cosigning. That is all those GenX and Youtube videos complaining about black women are. A bunch of angry, bitter men cosigning their hatred towards black women. If you all hate black women so much like it is obvious Tariq does, why don’t you go get one of these “superior” non-black women and be happy. Nope you can’t do that. There are a lot of you idiots that date other women, but still make videos about black women. It’s crazy. Well I guess it gets page clicks and attention, but many of you all are truly obsessed with black women in an unhealthy way. If we make you so angry, then please go be with a woman that makes you happy.

    I mean this dude really said that white women were oppressed. LOLZ!!!!!

    And Paul’s comment about real men and the article have nothing to do with simping. Young African American women have a certain view of what a man is supposed to be like mostly based on hood movies showing dysfunctional men because many don’t have fathers. Many men will try to be hyper-masculine like the dysfunctional black male characters in music videos and movies.

    African American men of the past who married and raised their kids were not as hyper-masculine as these men and boys. I mean African American men of this day and age are too afraid to even say another man is handsome. Older men have no problem doing this. They are comfortable in their sexuality. It is because of the tiny box of masculinity that black men have created for themselves (women didn’t do this) that some men can’t even tell another guy his shirt looks nice without saying “no homo.”

    And you talk about other men. Other men are not hyper-masculine. AA men’s hyper-masculinity is not good for relationships, not productive for society, and most importantly not good for mental health. Do you think the manhood that white men had when they built the West is anything similar to they hyper-masculinity that AA men have? No it is not especially because the manhood and masculinity AA men have has nothing to do with building or cultural dominance through education and financial gain. It is mostly about hubris, materialism, and sex. Please don’t write your lame excuse about how black women don’t support patriarchy. There would be no matriarchy in the black community in the first place if men didn’t create children and leave.

  • Perspective

    Corrections

    ARE’T NOT ARE

    “Now, if you aren’t a feminist black woman, to some degree – something is wrong with you. ”

    “. I have asked women who’s husbands make less “other questions” and eventually it comes out. “

  • Yb

    Wtf are you talking about?? Did your azz really just write a script for a coffee commercial on an article about domestic violence?

    Dafuq

  • Perspective

    @ Seriously

    and just in case you wanted to project imputations of malicious intent upon me

    6:00 minutes to 7:00 minutes

  • http://britnidanielle.com/ Britni Danielle

    Perspective,

    I’m glad you feel like I have so much time on my heads to make up an alter ago, but I don’t.

    Just because I appreciate what he has to say doesn’t mean we’re the same person (btw, Paul…I tried emailing you w/ the email you used here, but it bounced back). But hey…if it makes you feel better, carry on.

  • Perspective

    Well thank you for admitting that you aren’t really trying to do that – which neither are most women.

    You point about paying someone else.

    There is a difference between paying someone/ or being in the POSITION to pay someone else to do it – verses actually knowing how to do it, but you’d rather pay someone else to do.

    I don’t see many people who know how to do it, nor do I see many black people who have the resources to pay other people to do.

    If you took a bunch of educated black men and women, put them on an island – NOTHING would get done because the way BOTH are educated – has nothing to do with foundational building.

    In my mind women are EXCLUDED – because when it comes down to REAL COMMUNITY MAINTENANCE – women are not trying to get hot, sweaty, and dirty putting stuff together.

    112 men died building the Hoover Dame – Men in construction have the highest work related fatalities. Women are not built for that type of stuff, nor do they really want to do it.

    @Yb – the black community is matriarchal. Without impetus – NO you are not going to see black men out there building and maintaining. I don’t know how many times I have to cover this.

    “Traditional gender roles NEVER existed in the black American community.”

    Really?! I shouldn’t even dignify that with a response. Bump that – lets go with that.

    So why are black women comparing black men to white men when it comes to responsibilities in their own community when according to you. There are no gender roles. Therefore there are no duties that should be exclusive male. You all can fend for yourselves so what’s up with the complaining?

    Slaverly is a glaring example of that.

    What does SLAVERY have to do with the formation of the black family structure IMMEDIATELY AFTER SLAVERY.

    “European influence brought upon the current gender roles you see in various see in Africa, so don’t even start with that “in Africa women listened and blah blah” bullshit you pseudo black male intellectuals try to bring up.”

    Well, if that was the case LMAO – No wonder we got CONQUERED!

    Allow me to EDJUBACATE YOU

    “Yes, the term ‘feminism’ does not have African roots, rather, it came to the continent largely due to the African-American feminist movement. However, the concept itself is not one that western feminists exported to African women. Africa has some of the oldest civilizations and so it also has some of the oldest patriarchies. And African women have always found ways of resisting patriarchy through manipulating popular ideas of motherhood, or religion, or labour.”

    “Claiming the myth of matriarchy in pre-colonial societies also makes it easier to blame colonialism for patriarchy and forget of the African patriarchs. Patriarchy was not imported from Europeans. Patriarchy as we know it, perhaps. But not as the norm. There’s too much historical evidence of male-dominant systems in pre-colonial Africa to even go near such a claim.” ~ Minni

    “Myths are powerful tools to help us in shaping our identities, they can be psychologically empowering and balancing and I hate to be unsentimental about them therefore. Like many women, I love to read books such as “Women who run with wolves” or “‘The Goddess in Every Woman” because they give me a grounded sense of womanhood by exploring the archetypes of the feminine mind. And those archetypes I believe are very real. But as empowered as they make me feel I can’t claim that the stories are factual. And nor are the matriarchal myths about Africa. There is no intellectual integrity in distorting history to make oneself feel better. We are avoiding confronting reality by confusing it with myths.”

  • Perspective

    “Yes, the term ‘feminism’ does not have African roots, rather, it came to the continent largely due to the African-American feminist movement. However, the concept itself is not one that western feminists exported to African women. Africa has some of the oldest civilizations and so it also has some of the oldest patriarchies. And African women have always found ways of resisting patriarchy through manipulating popular ideas of motherhood, or religion, or labour.”

    “Claiming the myth of matriarchy in pre-colonial societies also makes it easier to blame colonialism for patriarchy and forget of the African patriarchs. Patriarchy was not imported from Europeans. Patriarchy as we know it, perhaps. But not as the norm. There’s too much historical evidence of male-dominant systems in pre-colonial Africa to even go near such a claim.” ~ Minni

    “Myths are powerful tools to help us in shaping our identities, they can be psychologically empowering and balancing and I hate to be unsentimental about them therefore. Like many women, I love to read books such as “Women who run with wolves” or “‘The Goddess in Every Woman” because they give me a grounded sense of womanhood by exploring the archetypes of the feminine mind. And those archetypes I believe are very real. But as empowered as they make me feel I can’t claim that the stories are factual. And nor are the matriarchal myths about Africa. There is no intellectual integrity in distorting history to make oneself feel better. We are avoiding confronting reality by confusing it with myths.”

  • http://gravatar.com/jamesfrmphilly jamesfrmphilly

    now you got it…

  • EST. 1986

    Why should we trust you?

  • EST. 1986

    What do you mean ‘if’? Men do tell women how to be women. It’s call sexism and double standards.

  • EST. 1986

    THE PROBLEM IS WHEN YOU THINK YOU, AS A MAN IS THE VOICE OF REASON ON A WOMAN’S SITE WHERE YOU DISRESPECT, INSULT, AND BERATE THE WOMEN WHO COMMENT HERE. YOU THINK YOU ARE DISPENSING KNOWLEDGE WHEN IN REALITY YOU ARE JUST BEING A FLUCKING NUISANCE.

  • Pink Lipstick

    I don’t believe feminism destroyed the nuclear black family. In fact, men have benefited tremendously from feminism. Forgive me for being heteronormative here but men now expect women to go to work and still perform uncompensated domestic labor and child rearing in the household. Men now expect women to “do it all.” Additionally, you cannot discuss the deterioration of the black family unit without also discussing the introduction of heroine and crack into black neighborhood. Finally, I can’t believe you are emphasizing feminism over institutional racism, lack of employment and lack of access to human capital.

    White men have unofficial networks that they can easily exploit. Think about it. Generally speaking, a white man will overlook a 3.8 GPA Wharton grad named Malcolm if his golfing buddy’s son needs a job–even if that son has a lower GPA. As you can see black women play no role in this situation, yet this is something that happens everyday. Because black men find it difficult to participate in formal employment markets, joining illicit informal markets becomes a much more attractive option (although it often leads to incarceration). Seriously, young black men “in the hood” see both wealth and opportunity in these informal markets, and very limited representation of black men succeeding in formal markets–with the exception of professional athletes, rappers, and entertainers. Being barred from joining formal markets emasculates black men more than black women being financially independent does.

    You often speak about black men not investing in the black community because of matriarchy. That doesn’t make any sense. Women cannot bar men from establishing a network of talented black men. One example of a strong elite network of black men is the Wall Street Alphas. Two other examples of such networks are SEO (google it) and MLT (featured in Black in America). One interesting fact about the former is that it was founded by guess what… a white man. This organization is also open to other minorities as well, but if he wanted to start a high performing company filled with black employees he could. MLT is perhaps a better example because this network was created by a black man, Susan Rice’s little brother actually. If black men are serious about creating networks and establishing institutions for talented black people, they can do it. The founder of MLT doesn’t spend all day trolling a black women’s magazine to complain about matriarchy. He is too busy establishing a network that young black men can exploit to eventually gain employment. Electronic discourse and ranting is simply not enough to materially change the black community.

    You also neglect to admit that when compared to men of other racial groups, black men are the least likely to get married. This primarily has to do with their socioeconomic status, and their participation in a culture that doesn’t value marriage. Black men receive more societal pressure to assume the role of a “player.” They are repeatedly told that their manhood is primarily based upon their sexual prowess and athleticism. Therefore, even when black men “hop the the fence,” they still aren’t getting married.

    Finally, marriage rates are declining for all races of people for several reasons: women no longer have to depend on men financially, cohabitation before marriage is no longer taboo, and having a child out of wedlock has become more acceptable.

  • paul

    Maybe I missed a character and misspelled it. Works ok from what I can tell. Try it again.

  • Perspective

    Why email me you know where to find me.

  • Chillyroad

    @YB

    What black women? Black women like me are mocked heckled insulted disrespected and verbally abused at this site. I was even told because my family is an immigrant one I shouldn’t be commenting.

  • mr.vicious

    Welcome to the world of arguing with SOME,not all but some bw.

  • mr.vicious

    Show me one man that gave birth and I will never say anything on these site again.
    These person says the most asinine statements on this site.
    Its more like women decide when a man is to become a father, it called “my body, my choice”, a man has no say in this matter.

  • isolde3

    No, it does have something to do with manhood. To better understand the angle of the article, you have to ask yourself why, if he was crazy, didn’t Belcher murder anyone else besides his girlfriend? He had a weapon, and he had ample opportunity, but he only murdered Perkins. Let’s keep it 100. This was a DV episode. Belcher felt entitled to shoot Perkins because he felt that she was out of line. I read on Deadspin how Belcher was out with some other woman, that night, but he somehow expected exclusivity from Perkins, even though, she wasn’t even his wife. It’s easy to get distracted by that whole, “oh if the menz could only talk about their feelings . . . “ bit at the end of this piece, but there are male domestic abusers who would either think twice or refrain from putting their hands on men altogether, yet don’t extend the same courtesy to their female partners, and that has much to do with “conventional masculinity.”

  • p

    Thats because you are______________!@chillyroad/QON

  • isolde3

    @thelie

    Actually, Britni’s logic is far more sound than yours. Lesbians in same sex couples don’t even account for 3% of the US population. So, according to “the math” that you so stupidly tout, if I wanted to account for the 17-45% (depending upon who you ask) of lesbian DV victims of physical violence, then they wouldn’t be in the majority of the 600K- 6M women a year who (according to the US DOJ http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C61/ ) report physical incidence of DV, which means that statistically (since you like stats), the types of intimate partner relationships where women experience the most violence are the ones involving men.

    You tried it tho . . .

  • isolde3

    Oh, poor Jester. It’s hard being clocked every time you say racist/misogynist dumb shit that’s easily refutable, aint it? Shall I post links? Why we could start with the last Gabby Douglas article . . .”

    http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2012/11/gabby-douglas-reveals-she-wants-apology-from-absent-father-in-new-memoir/

    “We would never hear about a 16 white female Olympian talk about their family dysfunction.”

    Remember that?

    http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9bt41M5UW1r3ovdbo1_250.gif

    #oops

  • EST. 1986

    You are full of horse manure, Queen of Newcastle. At one point in time, you were banned from commenting on this site and now you want to act like a victim.

  • Chillyroad

    @isolde

    Yes just like there are more white women on public assistance than black women. Of course there would be considering they are far more white women than black women.

    Relative to their population size Lesbian couples are violent. More violent than relationships involving two men.

  • kamille

    Must you only think in terms of black and white?
    I don’t propose matriarchy. But simply what most American communities are moving toward-equality. As more white women and women of color (asians, blacks etc) flood the universities, the model of house wife and working husband no longer serves. We’re not in the fifties anymore, those days are over. The U.S. by large is moving toward a more liberal ideology, look at Obama and the passage of gay marriage in SEVERAL states and the legalization of marijuana. We’re not going back, we’re going forward thank god! You’re going to have a hard time convincing all these educated women, no matter the color, to follow an outdated mode when these women are becoming the next senators, leaders, and owners of companies.

    If you want to talk about the ‘supposed weak black patriarchy’, it was never strong to begin with-meaning we were never strong in terms of resources and wealth. I don’t know why you don’t get that already! We have always been exposed since our arrival, the fact that we’re outnumbered, lack power and resources should be CLEAR indicators of that. The fact that white men can kill us and get away with it should be CLEAR indicators. We were never ‘strong’ in the sense that we could ACTUALLY/REALLY compete with whites. We don’t have the numbers/resources…as compared to other groups of people and their nations (Arab Emirates for example-Dubai they control their wealth ‘petroleum’). The fact that you go to a job owned and controlled by white people should be a CLEAR indicator of that.

    The state of the black community doesn’t hinge SOLELY on gender politics. But the basis is power, poverty, and resources. The fact that we’re a permanent underclass is the main reason for why we suffer versus this ‘matriarchal’ structure that supposedly exists in the black community.

  • isolde3

    @thelie

    No, I believe based on “the math” your exact words were . . . “The type of relationships that have the most violence against women are the ones that ONLY have women in it! There are NO men involved-” which is statistically false. Only after being corrected did you backtrack and try to qualify your argument in terms of “raw percentages,” which is still dubious. Your stance is common among bullshit artists on this site who like to play fast and loose with facts and figures.

    Here’s a thought . . . why don’t you go find some stats on the number of lesbian women murdered in cold blood by their female partners, similar to how Kasandra Perkins was killed by her male paramour, so we can really put some context behind your idiocy. Surely, since according to you, most women experience the most violence in intimate relationships where there are no men involved, then based on “the raw percentages” the number of lesbian murder suspects who kill their female partners should either be on par with or exceed the number of men who kill their female partners in the same vein, am I right?

    Last I checked, neither Kasandra Perkins nor Jovan Belcher were homosexuals, so your entire derailing rant about lesbian partner violence is what has “NOTHING to do with the point.” This is a discussion about DV partner violence within a heterosexual frame-work and how “conventional masculinity” was one of the variables contributing to the murder of Kasandra Perkins, not about the underlying variables of lesbian partner violence which may or may not have anything to do with “conventional masculinity” at all. So, do yourself a favor and keep up.

  • Adonis

    I will speak clearly, & honestly about my thoughts about the Belcher debacle.

    I think guns are part of the issue, but the big issue is the mental health of that black male who committed that HEINOUS act that left his little Zoey without parents. His mental health, and his mental health ONLY should be looked at. He DOES NOT represent the majority of non-murderous black males.

    And yes, Kasandra should have picked a better male to procreate with, even if he his a white male.

    ————–

    As for this article, someone brought up the point that when black women hurt, maim & kill, we don’t blame that on womanhood, but maybe we should start examining that institution when the next “LaShanda Armstrong” OR “Tonya Thomas” happens. (Woman who drowned herself & her 3 kids)

    It is funny how women say they want sensitive men, or men who don’t beat women, but often pick men who end beating that a$$. That says more about women then it does about the man. You get what you promote ladies.

    Black women you are on your own. Thank GOD for foreign BW

  • http://gravatar.com/pinklipstick227 pinklipstick227

    “It is funny how women say they want sensitive men, or men who don’t beat women, but often pick men who end beating that a$$. That says more about women then it does about the man. You get what you promote ladies.”

    Yes because women run around looking for men who will eventually physically abuse them. If Kasandra knew she was going to die that night she would have fled and led her child to safety–any mother would.

    I think you are minimizing the fact that Belcher was in dire need of therapy that would improve his mental health. Every couple experiences disagreements but they do not always result in murder-suicide. Do not turn this story into a black women vs. black men debate. We need to figure out how to promote mental health awareness for black community.

  • Perspective

    @ Lipstick

    Feminism has most certainly destroyed the black family. The end result of feminism which is a MATRIARCHY could not have happened WITHOUT “institutional racism, lack of employment and lack of access to human capital.”

    Take the jobs away from the men – THE MEANS TO SUPPORT A FAMILY, BE THE HEAD, AND MAINTAIN ones community and then promote the idea that women don’t need men and that they CAN DO IT ALL BY THEMSELVES, facilitating that process through the welfare system and making women feel that they are the ultimate victims – Oh yes FEMINISM was a tool used to destroy the black family.

    ” Being barred from joining formal markets emasculates black men more than black women being financially independent does.”

    A man can ONLY be emasculated in RELATIONSHIP to women. Emasculation does not exist in a VACUUM and is NOT defined solely by whether a man is capable of doing x, y, or z.

    If it was not men’s expected duty (UNDERNEATH PATRIARCHY) to provide and protect women, family, and community – then then the fact that HE WASN’T fulfilling those duties wouldn’t mean anything. It is in RELATION to women and children that a man is emasculated when he is UNABLE to perform those duties. It is impossible for MALE EMASCULATION to exist in a vacuum.

    A primary example – is the fact that you can’t shame men with MALE RESPONSIBILITIES who no longer DEFINE themselves by that system or codes of conduct, e.g. street culture or thug culture.

    “You often speak about black men not investing in the black community because of matriarchy. That doesn’t make any sense. Women cannot bar men from establishing a network of talented black men.”

    Women are currently raising the boys – so if the boys are not being TAUGHT the importance of foundational building, nor being provided the tools or knowledge about foundational building – WHICH WE ALREADY KNOW – black women DO NOT KNOW, what is your level of expectation for these boys?

    You are correct there is no blockade of black women preventing black men from doing anything – HOWEVER, if these traits and qualities are not instilled in them from CHILDHOOD – you might as well forget about them suddenly waking up at 25 and having an epiphany about what he should be doing – ESPECIALLY at the collective black male level. Black men are the way they are – due to the environments in which they grow up in, and the fact that the environment is not only devoid of resources but MATRIARCHAL – is NOT conducive to producing the type of black men that we need in the community who are expected to do all the building and maintaining.

    I have seen these so called black networks – and UNFORTUNATELY – they are established to incorporate these black men INTO THE ALREADY ESTABLISHED AND EXISTING WHITE COMMUNITY – to be the TOKEN negros who will be the black faces in HIGH places in order to the white system to PACIFY the black masses by saying. LOOK! here are some on point men. Again – from conception – they were taught nothing about foundation building.

    How many of these black men do you see in the black community, and even if they were how many people would be welcoming their presence. The objective in the black community for the past 50 years – which has been wrong – is to get OUT of the ghetto. Its like when a black woman brags to me about making $120K – I look at her like, “I don’t know what you are bragging about? I know YOU are not living in the BC, nor contributing to any foundational building.” Too many black folks are caught up in being ELITE TOKENS.

    Also keep in mind that any community that would be established by these so called ELITE black men – would be a community that they DIRECT and CONTROL – and how many sistas are REALLY DOWN FOR THAT?

    Sure black women want the black community FIXED – but most certainly not underneath black male leadership – that’s for damn sure – Look at the way women on this site – RESIST the very concept of a man leading his own household.

    He’s not to lead his household but you all expect him to be able to have the ability to TAKE ON THE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE COMMUNITY – but not lead? Get real!

    OMG – here was go again!

    “black men are the least likely to get married. This primarily has to do with their socioeconomic status, and their participation in a culture that doesn’t value marriage.”

    Marriage is NOT FOR LOVE – marriage is an institution that has everything to do with black men who are building and trying to pass on what they have built to the next generation – if black women are not participating in a male dominated community (where men are held responsible for everything) and men are passing on their legacies THRU YOU – and the man controls that – NO THEY WILL NOT VALUE MARRIAGE, AND THEY WILL NOT VALUE YOU!

    If black men are not passing anything on – what is the value of a black woman? If he’s not creating and maintaining a black community, why does his seed need to be black? You all constantly miss this point!

    Oh please – I’m waiting for the – “OH BLACK MEN JUST NEED TO BUILT IT, BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IT, BUT NOT CONTROL IT!”

    You must have lost your minds.

    “They are repeatedly told that their manhood is primarily based upon their sexual prowess and athleticism.’

    Oh I agree with this – and you all co-sign it all damn day – until you realize that pipe laying skills don’t build nor maintain anything.

    “Therefore, even when black men “hop the the fence,” they still aren’t getting married.”

    Do not conflate the issue. If a man is not getting married because he’s BROKE with black women, then he’s not going to get married on the other side of the fence where resources matter EVEN MORE – for the same reason. You and I both know that many of the brothas hopping the fence are some of the most upwardly mobile brothas – hence sistas complaints most of the time. Over there they can AT LEAST have some semblance of a patriarchal structure – but unfortunately – YOU DO NOT BUILD IN ANOTHER MAN’S HOUSE. They are simply guest!

    “Finally, marriage rates are declining for all races of people for several reasons: women no longer have to depend on men financially, cohabitation before marriage is no longer taboo, and having a child out of wedlock has become more acceptable.”

    Exactly! – So who’s the one that’s not REALLY valuing marriage?!

  • TheBlinked1

    More b.s. propaganda from the man-hating feminists. This young man obviously had mental problems, but do they do a much needed story on mental health issues in the Black community? No, let’s blame “conventional masculinity”;whatever the hell that means. I’m so tired of you b***** trying to turn our young men into effeminate weaklings I don’t know what the hell to do.

    These feminists so want to acquire masculine power, that they now dress, talk, walk and in other ways try to emulate masculine behavior. At the same time they VERY actively discourage young men from displaying masculine behavior. It’s like they want the roles to reverse so women can be in power and turn men into pathetic cuckolds.

    They crave power so much that they feel they cannot possess it through “traditional femininity”(since we want to throw around made-up terms), that they not only embrace masculinity, but reject and debase femininity. Yes, some of you more girly girl sisters have no doubt encountered the stares and glares of the masculine, feminist woman. She feels you are bringing women down by looking too feminine. These broads are really off their rockers. Too bad most primary school teachers and administrators fall into this category. They teach this crap in schools EVERYDAY.

    If only the “enlightened” and “educated” among us could see how they are ruining society and in turn humanity.

    And who is this dumb ass castrated Porter guy? “Porter wondered, “If it would destroy [a boy] to be called a girl, what are we then teaching him about girls?””

    WTF?!! So….you’re saying that if this young man says he would be destroyed by being compared to a girl, this somehow suggests a negative attitude towards girls? Really nigga? Cause what I get from that statement is that this kid would be destroyed by an authority figure calling him less than masculine in front of his peers;not an admission of some distorted or negative view of girls. A fallacious argument if I ever heard one. smh.

    You pseudo-intellectuals make me sick. I’m going to bed now.

  • http://.COM TheBlinked1

    .

  • isolde3

    “Why don’t you do yourself a favor and go screw yourself.”

    @thelie

    Wait, what’s this now (lol)?

    Looky here, Skippy. Instead of flirting with me, why don’t you pull up those stats I’m still waiting for, the ones on all the women killed by their lesbian girlfriends that by the “raw percentages” outnumber the amount of female hetero DV victims killed by their male partners. You know, so you can prove once and for all that the relationships where women experience the most violence are the ones that don’t involve men.
    _________________________________________________
    “I didn’t IMPLICITLY state it because I assumed people on this site had common sense.”
    _________________________________________________

    Uh, don’t you mean, “I didn’t EXPLICITLY state it . . .”? (Sigh. I swear; I gotta stop reaching for the low hanging fruit.) Oh well, let me play along this once . . .

    See at first I figured that the reason why you didn’t “IMPLICITLY” state it was because you were trying to pull a fast one and assumed that no one would call you out on it, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I was giving you too much credit.

    The real reason why you didn’t “IMPLICITLY” state it was because you didn’t understand the implications of what you were saying, and maybe you still don’t. In your mind, since lesbian couples have high rates or the highest rates of DV or whatever, then, to you, that means that women have more to fear from other women than from other men when it comes to physical DV, and that’s faulty logic. And the biggest, most glaring, super obvious hole in that plot of yours are the US homicide rates

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/gender.cfm,

    where men do the lion’s share of the murdering, women are most frequently killed by people they know, and most of those intimate partner murders of women are committed by their legal spouses/ex spouses.

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf .

    Don’t be mad at me because I’m not Chilly Jester of New Castle Road and easily distracted by outliers used in failed attempts to disprove rules.

    And like, what kind of Pre-K temper tantrum teas are you serving? You come in here with some “Ok, here are the facts . . .” BS hemming and hawing about semantics and stats (that you didn’t even bother to link to or quote BTW), and when I use your semantics tactics against you, you catch feelings and tell me to screw myself? That had to be the second funniest post on this thread, second only to Jester of New Castle’s “Why does everyone pick on me, WAAAAAAAAAAH!”

    You know what, Mister? I think you need a time out. Go sit in the corner and simmer down.

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Bdyq2GjRl2Y/UGHQgdyXz0I/AAAAAAAACYQ/oyVPLtuTpV0/s1600/dunce-cap.jpg

  • kj1986nyc

    Get real white guys just see y’all as an orifice to empty their sack in. Y’all black women do everything to avoid giving a black man cooperation. If white males wanted y’all, they would’ve taken y’all by now. Black women will most likely be single moms with halfbreed kids at best. And yes black women commit infanticide and kill their children on the daily, but the media avoids that like the plague.

  • Dave

    The woman who chooses to stay with a violent man is a victim of herself. You have the right to defend yourself in this country and unless mama indeed raised a fool I suggest one not hesitate to do so. As for masculinity and femininity…those are social constructs used to promote gender roles than one can choose to adhere to or reject. They in turn have nothing to do with biological or psychological “wiring.” As for the notion that masculinity had anything to do with this murder-suicide…reactionary, unsubstantiated nonsense.

  • Pink Lipstick

    Why are you so concerned with the way white men view black women? Believe what you want but interracial marriage is a viable option for black women interested in marriage.

  • black_feminist

    Male violence against women occurs way too frequently, in familiar patterns, to dismiss an incident as the action of “just a crazy-ass dude”. It is systemic and cultural. It will not end until we resolve the deeper issues in our culture that give rise to relationship violence.

  • black_feminist

    Exactly!!

  • Pingback: White Males & Gun Violence | Multicultural Familia

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