Why A So-Called “Nice Guy” Isn’t All That Nice

by Danielle C. Belton

not so nice

A short while ago there was quite a bit of controversy over a Tumblr blog called “Nice Guys of OK Cupid” that shamed the so-called “nice guys” of the popular online dating web site for being clueless trolls. Many loved it. Others derided it as unfair because it targeted the emotionally clueless, already handicapped from getting proper dates, now up for public ridicule. The site has since gone defunct, but part of the reason why it struck such a chord with one group and a nerve with the other was the reality that there are some men – shy, painfully clueless, unfortunate types – who struggle to grasp signals and signs and believe sex and/or a girlfriend are luxuries and privileges, not Constitutional rights.

It’s about the pursuit of happiness. Nowhere are you promised the actual thing. Yet the frustration is real and comes from a place of tragic, misplaced entitlement.

Like, the other day a man said “hello” to me on Twitter. I didn’t immediately say hi back, so he wrote some diatribe about the “rudeness” of black women and how he had tried to be “nice.” So I blocked him because … why?  Nice people don’t flip out on strangers over shouting things on Twitter and not getting immediate responses.

But people having trouble adjusting to everything not being about them, of women not owing anyone attention just because you said “hello,” is very real.

Some still haven’t learned nothing is owed when you can’t buy it in the first place.

Society often treats women as if we are part of the marketplace, none too dissimilar from the latest model car or an expensive pair of designer sneakers. That we’re something or someone who can be had for a price – whether that price is actual currency or “niceness” treated like currency. It’s not that women don’t lament how the “hot” guy or the “rich” guy or whoever the “ideal” guy is is more fixated on looks and you’re too short/fat/plain/unsophisticated/whatever and he doesn’t see you. But the response is different. Men are supposed to have clear opinions on what they do and don’t want. Women are supposed to be passive actors who can be bought with stuffed animals and on-time child support payments.

But if you’ve ever interacted romantically with a woman, you know this is not true.

This idea that if you are “nice” to a woman – say hello, open a door, call her pretty – a man is entitled to time, attention, a phone number, a date, sex, whatever is woefully ridiculous as it presupposes women aren’t human beings, but products. That if you put in enough money or niceness tokens in them you can have the date you desire, but in no other part of your life this technique works. You don’t get the raise just for showing up at work every day. You don’t (or shouldn’t) try to buy friends. And friendship with someone of the opposite gender isn’t supposed to be a way station leading to friends-with-benefits-sex … unless that’s something you both want and agree upon.

It’s not guaranteed.

There are simply too many factors that come into play when talking about things like attraction, desire and romantic interest. There is no mathematical formula or method of give and take that will promise you a woman’s love. If she’s not interested she’s just not and interest is not “owed” out of kindness. Dating is not a marketplace even if we call it the “Meet market.”

There is no legal tender promising true love. And if you want a promise of sex in exchange for good, cash or services, there’s an entire sex industry for that.

I get why some men are reluctant to embrace this idea. It’s an excuse. Rather than deal with what’s going on inside, with what their issue is, they’ve projected it on the women around them. It’s easier to say “all women are crazy” or “all women want thugs or bad boys” or say “all men are cheaters” or “all men are assholes” than deal with the reality that love is hard to find, keep and come by. We feel powerless when we can’t get the love we want.

And some of us take that powerlessness and take it out on strangers they’re trying to screw on OK Cupid.

  • Orange Starr Happy Hunting

    love is hard to find, keep and come by.

    ^This, undeniably true

  • Ash

    THANK YOU! 99 percent of these so-called nice guys are crazy.

  • http://www.urbanexpressive.com J. Nicole

    I’ ve always felt that just because someone is “nice” or a “good guy” doesn’t mean they’re “good” for you.

    I know a male who considers himself a nice guy; he’s romantic, likes to cook & clean for women. Listens to CD 101.9 at night, opens doors, etc, never cheats on a woman… but he’s cheap as sh*t and has (in his words) no tolerance for “sass”. Another guy I know considers himself a nice guy; he’s smart, successful, yet puts himself on a pedestal because he only dates Aftoccentric women, and loves to clown on women who look like they belong on reality shows, so “nice” guys may not always be “good” guys.

    Many men do think because they are nice & say the right things, they are entitled to better interactions, & when some don’t cry & moan about th finishing last. This is not to encourage dating “bad” boys, just that everyone may not always be what they appear to be.

  • Erin

    So-called “nice guys” are the most irritating, bitter, whiners I’ve ever encountered. Being fake nice just to get attention from a woman will leave them lonely and bitter like most of them already are. Most people, if they’re lucky, can sense when someone is truly genuine or when someone is using something as a cover-up to pull women in. The angry “nice guys” that are always on their “Woe is me… Nobody likes me. Every woman wants a bad boy” steeze aren’t really “nice guys”, they’re hurt men that need to drop the bitterness and grow up.

  • Stanley

    The nice guy is like the so call independent woman. They both want a standing ovation and a favorable dating options for being the minimum of what they should be.

    Being nice and independent is what everybody should be to begin with. No one deserves favorable dating options for just being any of these, period.

  • Yb

    I find that white guys and Asian men use the nice guy/”women like bad boys” spiel, while the black men version of the Nice Guy is: “you wanted a thug/ ignored all the good black men.”

    Both whinings are extremely annoying and wrapped in sense of entitlement.

  • Kacey

    I’ve had quite a few encounters with so-called “nice guys” (or “good dudes”) and I’ve concluded that most of these guys are sociopaths.

    I’ve experienced the guys who try to talk to women in the street – starting off passive-agressively polite, then getting abusive because you won’t give them any attention.

    But my worse interaction with this type was a few years ago when I went on a movie & dinner date with a guy I met near my office. It was a first date and things went well – we seemed to enjoy each other’s company, he acted like a perfect chivalrous gentleman (he even bought me a rose) and he paid for everything. He actually referred to himself as a nice guy several times during our conversation. The next day he kept badgering me to come to his apartment. I, of course, kept saying no (I had only been out with him one time) and what started out as playful banter quickly turned ugly when he realized I was definitely not going to come to his house. He then launched into a tirade about “b*tches playing games”, how a “good dude” like him wasn’t going to be “spending his money for nothing no more”, how it didn’t payoff to be nice to these “hoes”, how he was out $100..etc. I was dumbfounded and a little scared. He actually felt that because he had spent some money on me I now “owed” him sex and had somehow used and abused his goodwill. I hung up and blocked his number and put his email address on my spam list. For weeks I was scared of running into him outside my office building (was even scared he might stalk me). I was even tempted to send him a check for the supposed $100 he claimed he spent.

  • dirtychai

    If you have to run around trying to convince someone that you’re “nice” or “independent” you’ll drop the facade the instant the moment presents itself.

  • Yb

    “I’ve concluded that most of these guys are sociopaths.”

    “spent some money on me I now “owed” him sex”

    ^^This!!!! My campus is crawling with “Nice Guys” and many of them feel that because they borrowed you a pencil and help opened a door for you their entitled to your vagina.

  • au napptural

    Ah the Nice Guy (TM). This guy isn’t actually “nice”. This guy doesn’t have enough swagger or sex appeal to get you into bed the old-fashioned way, so they conclude women only want “thugs”. “Thugs just want to lie to you and use you for sex!”, they say. “I’m different”, they proclaim. They SAY they are chivlarous, kind, etc. You’ll notice this chivlary never extends to “ugly” girls they consider beneath them, only the gorgeous,together women who are out of their league. The guy claims to have been “friend-zoned” for some loser-thugs by these beautiful women, but he never made a move to start with. He only pretended to be their friend to play on their emotions and get sex. Yep, he’s different alright.

  • http://www.myblackfriendsays.com myblackfriendsays

    I think this all just comes down to how we are socialized to think about relationships when we are young. Just like there are men who think that buying things for women entitles them to conversation, sex, etc., there are women that think unless a man buys her something, he is not worth her time. So both sexes are getting these really screwed up messages about what you need to make a good relationship.

    I am going to raise my son to know that while he should pay for things sometimes, he should not continue to see a girl that expects him to pay all the time. And I am going to teach my daughter that she should always have enough money to pay her own way, go in with the expectation that she will have to pay her own way, and that using men she’s not interested in to get free stuff is just wrong.

    And I’ll teach both of them that just because someone spent money, that is no way a guarantee or obligation of anything romantic or sexual happening in the future. Here’s hoping it works (:

  • Candy

    ^^^^^THIS!!!!!^^^^^

  • http://gabandgraffiti.wordpress.com MarloweOverShakespeare

    I thought CD 101.9 left FM radio!!!!!

  • Chelley5483

    Wow I thought it was only me who sees through the, “I’m a nice guy” bit. I know so many guys that you just described. The black-woman hating “Nice guy.” The I’ll be your doormat then resent the hell out of you and talk about all women ain’t sh*t to all the men in my family “nice guy.” The I have no ambition and would rather play on the internet than work hard to make sure if I did find the right one I’d have something to bring to the table “nice guy.” The list goes on and on. I’m always like, but wait.. how are you a self-proclaimed “nice guy” and the biggest asshole I know at the same time?

    Like you said, “nice guy” does not equate to “good guy.” So true.

  • Fantastico

    That’s disturbing. Some people are just warped.

  • Pat

    Nice!

  • http://gravatar.com/kem247 F.S.T.C

    “Society often treats women as if we are part of the marketplace, none too dissimilar from the latest model car or an expensive pair of designer sneakers”—-

    Thank you! I can’t walk into the store without a few insecure guys criticizing my body, and they are usually with their women when they do that. Do they do this to make their girl feel better? This is a serious question.

  • GlowBelle

    Thank you for this post!!

    I’ve had quite a few experiences with the “nice guy/good man” type and to me, they are the most dangerous dudes that I’ve ever come across because they are immature, slick, and two-faced. They are never themselves and they put on an different persona just so they can catch a girl off-guard. Their sense of entitlement is pretty scary as they feel like you owe them something (always sex and/or relationship) and if they don’t get their way they will act violent and abusive towards you. I once had one guy do the whole “I’m a good man, I gotta job, I’m cultured, I got my own place, I’m good to women” spiel to me and then when I didn’t call him back, the next time I saw him, I was with my mother and he was very rude in front of me AND my mother, pretty much acting that he was king of the world and I should have taken time out of my tired life to call HIM and – get this – even told my mother: “You raised a daughter who doesn’t know how to call a brotha?”…yeah he did that last bit like it was a joke or something. How’s that for “good” and “nice”?

    I always feel that to be in a relationship you have to be yourself, don’t pretend or try to trick people into it. If you have to keep telling people that you are a “nice guy/good man” then you’re just trying to convince yourself of the opposite and proving how self-absorbed and immature you really are. Yeah, ladies, you gotta watch out for these dudes…

  • Oh my!

    Lol…going to vent with Clutch today.

    This topic has reopened an old womb. Even though I am happily married now, the man whom broke my heart prior to my husband and I jumping the broom – broke it bad. It was as if he came at the right time and he knew the right things to say. I really believe he studied a manual on how to win over P’s already jolly heart. Since I was such an open to love, a happy go-lucky person and he was so nice – I believe I had met someone similar to me. It was easy to fall prey.

    And it didn’t help that I said a prayer right before he pooped up. Oops meant, popped up..
    Here we go on a rollercoaster ride: First of all you’re minding your own business. You’re not looking to fall in love, but it always nice to have someone to talk to. One of my nicknames is “Power to the People”; my special friend would leave AA books on my doorsteps (prior to telling him that was my major and my passion). I felt a great strong connection within that sense as well as a spiritual one. Also, I love roses in which he would leave on my doorsteps as well. He would take me out for ice cream (small I know, but sweet). But the way in which he had really gotten to me was being there lending a listening ear, being genuine sweet and nice. It was so easy to talk to him about everything. Now that I look back, I know I fell too soon. At the time, it was natural. Until this day, because he had such a warm-blanket filled spirit of sweetness, it really shocked me that he lied about not having a girlfriend (soon-to-be wife). It was so unnecessary.

    1. We were just friends.
    2. If it was a “no go”, there was no need to become emotionally attached.

    I gave him the benefit of the doubt of giving me something that I never had which was to have my best interest at heart and this involve telling the truth – not being misled. To have your best interest at heart is NOT attached to a price tag. That is something a homeless man can give you. This is a gesture that builds lifetime relationships not seasonal. We can’t guarantee love, but if someone is in your life in any capacity—ensure they have your best interest at heart. If you lie about unnecessary things, could they retain an honest relationship in the future? The last time I had spoken to him, he was happily married and they were expecting their first child. In the end, it worked out for the best. I eventually met my Boaz (and yes he came with drama), but we stuck it out – he proved his love for me and made the necessary changes to make it right.

    Really my point is the nice, smooth ones really can catch you off guard. Oftentimes, that is when women must become smarter. Go slow and take it one day at a time. It is about the pursuit of [your] happiness – never forget that peace (not piece). Great article!!!

    sidenote: Y’all don’t judge me, I really did fall-in-love off of a friendship – it was different and the feeling was just that strong. :)

  • Gell0h0h

    NOOOOO!! DEAD AT THIS COMMENT! ” many of them feel that because they borrowed you a pencil and help opened a door for you their entitled to your vagina.”

    The streets are REAL! LOL.

  • Oh my!

    He was a well-known professional athlete. It didn’t help I was already attracted to him for years prior to meeting him – yeah, I should have known better. I guess with that and with him being so nice, I just knew it was going somewhere.

    We all live and learn! Cheers to wisdom and true friendships!!!

  • Orange Starr Happy Hunting

    People can self profess to be all manner of things, talk is cheap, but people are what they do and show is prove as they say. If you are truly a genuine and kind individual then that is the spirit in which one does things. Not with strings attacked or any ulterior motives. They say the devil is the perfect gentleman, full of charm and wit, that is until he has gotten what he wants from you.

  • Treece

    “Men are supposed to have clear opinions on what they do and don’t want. Women are supposed to be passive actors who can be bought with stuffed animals and on-time child support payments……..This idea that if you are “nice” to a woman – say hello, open a door, call her pretty – a man is entitled to time, attention, a phone number, a date, sex, whatever is woefully ridiculous as it presupposes women aren’t human beings, but products. That if you put in enough money or niceness tokens in them you can have the date you desire, but in no other part of your life this technique works. You don’t get the raise just for showing up at work every day. You don’t (or shouldn’t) try to buy friends. And friendship with someone of the opposite gender isn’t supposed to be a way station leading to friends-with-benefits-sex…”

    YES!!!!!!!! Yes to all this ^ ! Nice people are nice just because, not because they think they’ll get something in return. If your compliment, door opening, or “letting me borrow a pencil” (lol at the comment above btw) is just to get a date/ a number/ sex from me; then news flash….you’re not a “nice guy”. Cut it out…

  • yeahright2011

    I’m going to play devils advocate here. These are men who aren’t getting what they want and expressing their frustration. Like I said i the Single Mother’s post, just because women are in “earshot” doesn’t mean they should be censored or change their perspective to meet our comfort or a standard of masculinity that isn’t doing them any good.

    They’re just following a formula we women created and its not working, probably because we aren’t honest about what we want, just saying what sounds good. Remember when Ebony and Essence did all those “What Black Men want in a Black Woman” pieces in the 90s and early 2000′s? These men said “Independent, God Fearing, Strong, Educated” among other things. Gee I wonder what happened? They weren’t honest.

    So lay off the “Nice Guys”, they’re no different than people who went to college at great expensive only to find themselves struggling in the job market.

  • More Please

    More stories please. I can relate to almost all of these.

    I actually had an incident recently that caused me to shake my head. You have to really be careful with these so-called “nice guys” because most aren’t playing with a full deck. They have a hard time controlling their layered anger and can be very passive aggressive.

    *Sigh* dating used to be so much easier… What the heck happened?

  • Furious Styles

    “I think this all just comes down to how we are socialized to think about relationships when we are young. Just like there are men who think that buying things for women entitles them to conversation, sex, etc., there are women that think unless a man buys her something, he is not worth her time. So both sexes are getting these really screwed up messages about what you need to make a good relationship.”

    Bravo and Yes. It’s easy to focus our ire on the “nice guys’. It’s kind of the hot thing to do now. This is happening alongside complaints about “traditional dating being dead”, but such complaints ignored the fact that THAT system was broken for this reason. It’s called the “commodity model”, the idea that sex is something that women produce and men consume; a “thing” we earn, purchase, negotiate, or strong-arm from women rather than something that two people who are into each other share. It’s all reduced to a input/output transaction. Movies, video games and pop culture reinforce it, too (Rescue the princess/slay the dragon/defeat the supervillain/graduate from school and you will get sexed down by the damsel in distress/hot young intern/cheerleader who used to be with the asshole, etc. as a reward.) So I would add questioning the messages with your children that those media give to men and women.

    But yes, as the former president of the Nice Guy’s Union, I know we are owned by the same parent company as the Bad Boys. And the commodity model was our mission statement. Women are not the prize in the cracker jack box. Of course, it helps if a man has passions, interests, character to bring to the table rather than leaning on Niceness (TM). “Nice” is used as a defense for many with no skills just as much as “swag”.

  • Ash

    Oh my! So many men are like that. Dinner at Applebees and a movie doesn’t entitle you to sleep with me! SMH!

  • Ash

    Amen! I once had to tell a male friend that the reason he was striking out was because he was going for women out his league. Some men think if they act like Ryan Gosling in “The Notebook” that a woman will sleep with him. She has to actually be attracted to you!

  • Keshia

    Lol I’ve never met a “nice guy” but reading these comments has me extremely terrified to date, and I think I’ll stay single for a while. Women have to go through a lot dealing with men it just seems like such a headache.

  • The Moon in the Sky

    Men face a lot of rejection because they go after women who have shown no interest in them.

  • JJ

    Don’t let these stories stop you from dating. Their are a lot of genuine guys out there. You may encounter a jerk or two, but most guys will be pretty decent,

  • au napptural

    Oh, I suppressed my horror story till now, but I’ll share. I once met a guy when I first went natural. He complimented my hair, which I’m a sucker for. So I went out with him twice, but everything was so EXTREME. For instance, I’m all about black power, but this dude was so paranoid he didn’t want to eat anywhere white people served the food. He was convinced they’d spit in it, etc. That was kinda crzy, but I actually know many people who feel like that, who are sane.

    Anyhow, it was always white people this, white people that. Then when he got looser, it was my ex this, my ex that. I began backing away quickly. I said nicely I thought we worked better as friends. What did I say that for?! He said “You black bitches-”, and I just hung up. That was Christmas Eve and he cuss-texted me all Christmas Day, then the rest of Christmas break. I almost asked my father to go back to school with me, b/c I’m 90% sure he wanted to stalk me. He kept calling, and like all bitter men it was only to tell mY voicemail how awful I was. I wasn’t as cute as I thought, a whore, probably was stringing him along all the time, and most importantly he didn’t know why he dealt with me to begin with. Then that trump card they love: I have a new girlfriend now any way! Then go call her! Then he claimed he was moving to “be with her.”

    Why did I see that fool still in town months later. I had to hide behind my girl. I learned many valuable lessons, namely, if a guy says anything you think is suspect, run! When we first started talking he said something about his ex cheating. I asked if he caught her or she confessed. Neither. He didn’t know for sure, just he knew how scandalous women could be. Red flag!

  • memyselfandi

    I think one of the hardest life lessons out there is that love is not a meritocracy. You can be nice, funny, smart, independent, etc. and that doesn’t guarantee you a life partner or even a date on Saturday night. Yes, you have to be ready for love, but some of it is also just luck.

    “Nice guys” are often just the guys who haven’t realized that yet and are bitter that doing what they think is the right thing hasn’t landed them the woman they want. Many women go through the same thing and some also get bitter about it. I think it’s just part of growing up.

  • http://gravatar.com/jadenoellesblog JN

    Just wanted to point out that some of these men actually have disorders like Aspergers which could make dating difficult.

  • Anonin

    I think the relationship between education and job employment is different from the relationship between two living beings with minds of their own,

    So, no. Still wont cut these so called nice guys some slack until one of them or someone else can tell me why someone who supposedly doesnt have mental problems thinks its okay to aggressive project their desires on someone who doesn’t feel the same for you.

  • Kay

    I’ve dated a few of these so-called “nice” guys who feel that the women around them have used or neglected them. But after spending time with them, I found that they had issues that had nothing to do with the women they were dating. Some of them had insecurities, doubts, fears and psychological issues that probably prevented them from having a healthy relationship. People can sometimes pick up on things like this and decide to move on, because hey, no one has time to try to “fix,” someone. One guy I dated seemed like a nice enough guy and had the whole “woe-is-me, I’m a engineering nerd no woman likes,” etc. etc. After a while I noticed that he had a superiority complex mixed in with some narcissistic tendencies. His problem was that he viewed women, especially beautiful women, as trophy pieces and not fellow human beings. He solely measured these women, including myself, in term of attractiveness, and not innate values or sense of self. He had an overblown sense of his intelligence and liked to “educate,” me even in things I was well-versed in. In short, he was an ass.

    I think that before folks throw up the “nice guys/nice women” finish last ish, they should back up and try to see if they have issues that need to be worked out. And then spend time sorting it out. I saw this tumblr and noticed that most of these men hated women that made more than them, felt they were entitled to sex, wanted only a fit woman who liked working out even though they were out-of-shape couch potatoes themselves. They were generally undercover douches who didn’t want to point the fingers at themselves. Basically, these weren’t truly “nice,” guys at all.

  • Orange Starr Happy Hunting

    If someone is not attracted to you that is not a slight.
    Everyone is not attracted to everybody, those just are the breaks, reality and such.

  • Kay

    You’re not supposed to get kudos and a cookie for doing things you’re supposed to be doing. That’s first. You’re SUPPOSED to go and be a responsible, kind, law-abiding citizen. Second, you can’t lump all women into one category and expect that “women don’t know what they want,” well apparently they do, because none of them have snatched up those so-called, “God Fearing, Strong, Educated,” men. Third, you should be who you are and not change for anyone. If those men are strong, and supposedly God-fearing but are striking out then they aren’t very faithful are they? Especially since you’re supposed to be a good person regardless of circumstance and stand firm in the knowledge that God will send you the perfect mate. Nope. That’s not good enough. Just act like you’re a nice guy, when secretly you’re a douche, and then dog the women that don’t want you first chance that you get. *rolls eyes*

  • MCasey13

    Perfect definition!

  • Furious Styles

    @ Memyselfandi

    “I think one of the hardest life lessons out there is that love is not a meritocracy. You can be nice, funny, smart, independent, etc. and that doesn’t guarantee you a life partner or even a date on Saturday night. Yes, you have to be ready for love, but some of it is also just luck.”

    I’ve been saying this for YEARS.

  • http://Smith Ann

    Wow, I was thinking the same thing, CD 101.9 bring back 90s memories in NJ/NY!

  • http://gravatar.com/nolakiss16 binks

    THIS sums it up perfectly! I just went to church, came back and listen to the sermon again because majority of these comments are preaching …lol. A lot of people still have “rose colored fairy tale glasses” on that the good guys will prevail; nice people will always found lasting love, working hard pushes you to the top faster, etc. And this is not to sound jaded but a lot of us have to learn life is not fair even to those who do what is deem good, nice and just. The reality is life isn’t a fairy tale! But the “good on paper” type of guy is REAL. Just because a guy is or seems like a great guy and has everything together doesn’t mean he is the right one (or he is right for the majority of women) remember “there are a lot of wolves in sheep’s’ clothing”. And as mention a lot of these guys who know they would be considered “ideal/good/nice” men to women ran just as much game and have baggage like the so called “un-ideal” men. You really have to be on your p’s and q’s and filter people these days; you can’t take people on face value. I don’t care how nice they seem or good they come off.

  • yeahright2011

    Again I don’t see the same statements finding their way onto comment sections where women are on the short end of unreciprocated affection/attraction. Be blame men’s shallowness, impossible beauty standards (not just the racial one’s either), their selfishness for not engaging in romantic relationships with single mothers and anything else that would disqualify us from the personal preferences of men but men should just suck it up and not stay anything because it makes women look less vulnerable and compassionate than we’d like to see ourselves. Nothing in my comments have been proven wrong but the hypocrisy of us (women) is starting to show.

  • Anonin

    You can turn it around to women if you want but that still isnt changing any of my thoughts.

    No men dont have to censor their feelings when feeling rejected its not about that. Its about say for example the women in the topic saying how the guy would go ham the moment they did feel rejected. These so called nice guys threatening and cussing and stalking wtf. Not saying women out there dont do this either but were not talking about ‘nice chick’

    Idk about some but i feel compassion for guys when they get hurt or rejected harshly (when its due not like the example above) because i wouldnt want that to be me when it comes to someone I like.

    But thats life, we can be hurt or mad about it but you cant bitter because the person doesn’t want you.

  • MCasey13

    This reminds me of a “nice guy” who I dated a few years ago. He was a little bit geeky but he was very nice. He brought me a build-a-bear on our first date, took me to nice places, was a gentleman. I thought he would be good as a friend and I enjoyed his company but there was no chemistry. He almost treated me more like a friend than someone he was dating because there was no flirtation or anything that really even indicated that we were more. He asked me how I felt about him and I just told him I thought we were better as friends. When I said that, he flipped out. He told me I had wasted his time and he doesn’t just take women out for nothing (as if getting to know someone wasn’t reason enough). He made sure to mention that if he wanted a girlfriend, there were multiple women he could call up right now to get one because a lot of women wanted him. He did later apologize and convince me to go out with him a few more times because he thought he could get me to be his girlfriend in a month by being “nice”. Of course that never happened. He would still get angry if I didn’t respond to his efforts they way he thought I should.

  • Jasmine

    As the Bible says, “even the devil can changed into a angel of light” and this applies to people too.

  • yeahright2011

    Both of my recent comments were removed even though they didn’t violate comment policy. I guess my perspective been a few women uncomfortable, I think one woman thought I was a man since I don’t support the author’s premise. When women decide that men should behave in a way while women can and are entitled to behave in another in a similar situation is hypocrisy. It’s okay for us to go on television, the radio, and the internet and project what we consider to be “fair” onto men but we reserve the right to dismiss their concerns, openly challenge their manhood, and even question their mental faculties. That is a double standard, hypocritical, and wrong. Sorry ladies but it is what it is.

  • yeahright2011

    We can all be bitter about whatever we want, its not our place to dictate what other people are entitled to feel and again you don’t have to do anything, just don’t expect anything.

  • http://melodymoose.deviantart.com/ Catpopstar

    Thats because its not relevant. We are talking about guys who are generically nice to you… until they find out you’re not ready to put out a week later. Then they turn into abusive assholes.

  • Anthony

    I think this article needs to be published at a men’s blog! I know I wish I had seen this somewhere during my freshmen or maybe sophmore year in college. I was very much in the nice guy mold when I was young. I was geekish, a bit insecure, and the possessor of really crappy social skills. I also tended to be fixated on women that I had absolutely no shot of getting. To top it all off, I have had a lifelong weight problem. To make a long story short, it was all too easy to for me to see myself as the nice guy whose great points were being overlooked by all of those “shallow women.” Nevermind, I ran like hell from women that reminded me of myself whenever they showed me any interest.

    To make a long story short, I took advice from my friends, and I began to date women with whom I had a realistic shot. Soon, I found that I was quite successful, and pretty soon I was as big a dog as any so-called “bad guy.” The bottom line was that I had to look at myself and admit I was not a nice guy, I was a frustrated guy with really bad social skills.

    Over time, I came to realize that my frustration was that I simply did not accept myself for who i was. Although popular culture shows black men as all conquering studs, most us literally and figuratively come far short of the sexual superman we would like to be. It is truly a blessing to finally be at peace with who you are and the gifts that God has given you. Some of us are born with charisma and looks like Denzil. Some of us would do better to work really hard in school and dedicate ourselves to having success in a chosen field. At the end of the day, success is the world’s greatest source of confidence. If a man knows he is capable, he will not look to a woman to make him feel good about himself since he already feels good about himself. I also will tell any brother to toss posters and video images, and learn to deal with real women authentically. No man is more miserable than the one who chases what he will never have.

    I hope I have made sense and not just rambled. The most important thing is that young “nice guys” need to know that life is not the movies, and the beautiful model look alike is not going to fall in your arms just because you speak and open the door for her. No woman owes you anything, but a man owes it to him to be interested or even speak.

  • Not So Nice NiceGuy

    Former nice guy here: i used to be the nice guy but as another article stated, its stupid. Am i still a gentleman? Yes. But i learned a long time ago that being nice isnt enough. You have to be a gentleman, have integrity, a backbone, and the ability on the first date or first phone conversation to spot women who don’t have your best interest at hand.
    Will you run across women who wont say thank you for holding the door open for them or for picking something up off the ground? Of course. but let them continue their miserable lives. I’m a hard critic of rumen i date. But i dont go through half the stuff other people go through

  • Anthony

    The last bit of what said was not clear. A man owes it to himself to work hard and to look at himself honestly and figure out what he does well and what his goals should be. Sitting around and daydreaming about what you want life to be is a dead end, and definitely not attractive.

    Finally, it does not matter if 98 out a 100 women don’t want you. You only need one. For what it is worth, the old saying about once you have one, the others notice is true too, although I am not encouraging anyone to be dog!

  • DownSouth Transplant

    Oh My, No judging here, who knows why we fall for whom we fall for when we do, glad you woke up and found you a Boaz, sending you a virtual hug ( just because)

  • http://gravatar.com/nisku2006 lola bird

    woman are usually attracted to the wrong men because they say the right things

  • Kay

    Okay I’ll bite. What exactly is your issue with this article? It’s not saying that ALL nice guys are bad. It’s just saying that some guys are not nice and are only doing what they feel are the right things just to land a woman. The problem with this kind of functioning is that after you land the woman (or man) you want, you often stop doing the kinds of things that are involved in maintaining a good, healthy relationship. Those kinds of things have to be genuine. If you are a kind-hearted person, you will be that way regardless if you’re recognized for it or not. In all, pretending to be something you’re not isn’t healthy or good for either party involved. Did we read the same article????

  • Gina Wild

    GIRL: You just wanna sleep with me, don’t you?

    NICE GUY: Oh no, I’m not like other guys. I want to get to know you better, etc.

    MAN (Good Guy with an Edge): Hell yeah, of course I wanna sleep with you. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. What, other guys don’t want to sleep with you?!?

    And the Man proceeds to sleep with the girl. So to all of you nice guys there. Stop being nice. Too nice. Nice guys finish last. Always.

  • au napptural

    Don’t engage him, Kay. This is our new troll or more like ChillyRoad redux, since that thing got kicked off. Even when you put all the disclaimers (I’m not talking about men who are really nice, not all men, etc.), these fools still get butt-hurt. Why? Because a hit dog will holler. They see themselves and just like IRL they’d rather blame allllllll of womankind than admit it is their issues that are messing them up.

    I’m going to break my own rule just this once. Yeahright, you said women tell men what to want in terms of looks, etc. And you claim now we are hypocrites. I don’t get that. Women are allowed to tell men what WE want. They don’t have to adhere, but then they are going to be lonely. Think about it. You complained women don’t attempt to meet the unrealistic beauty standards, the cooking, etc. That’s not even true, but let’s pretend it is. The men who are into all that stuff finds someone who suits their taste. Women want men who aren’t pretend nice guys, faking to get the draws. When you get found out you get rejected. You don’t like it? Either change or find someone who likes passive-aggressive, whiny b!tches. I wish you the best of luck.

  • yeahright2011

    My issue with the article is that we don’t hold women to the same standard with it comes to unrequited attention/affection/attraction.

    We don’t tell women who lose weight, cook, or have sex to land a man that they’re disingenuous because we know wanting to love and be loved is nothing if not the most genuine aspect of humanity. We present ourselves as victims of unappreciative men that lead us on and heaven help him if a man points out that a woman stopped cooking, staying fit, or putting out like she did during their courtship. He would be a shallow so-n-so.

    Kind-hearted people don’t exist, just the decisions and incentives right down to the warm as fuzzy feeling that is also an incentive. There is no proof that these men will regress to minimum romantic behavior if they get the woman they want, suggesting they would says more about how we view men than how they actually behave.

  • Anthony

    Yeahright2011, you have a point. Women do tend to handle rejection less well than men in when they approach a man. That said, smart men tend to read women well, and don’t waste time on uninterested women. “Nice Guys” tend to be so focused on what they want, they miss obvious signs of women’s disinterest.

    One final thing, woman often get used sexually by men who don’t want them beyond a nut. That is something that happens much less often to men. This reality adds another layer of complexity to the issue of rejection for women.

  • Dalili

    Don’t be intimidated @Keshia. Dating can be fun. God forbid you have any harrowing experiences, however if you do, try to think of them as teachable moments. I learned they help sharpen one’s senses, so that (in Ms. Vanzant’s words) the next time you see crazy coming, you’ll cross the street…pronto!

  • yeahright2011

    Actually no I didn’t say we were hypocrites for telling men what we want, we are hypocrites for not allowing them to be frustrated and expressing it in non-violent ways like over the internet. They’re not entitled to their emotions because it makes you uncomfortable to see women cast as if not more shallow, inconsistent, and dishonest as you try to make men out to be in this case. You can make excuses for it but its silly to demand men you reject (and call names) to keep their mouths shut and place a higher premium on your feelings than their own.

    I didn’t say women don’t attempt to meet standards, don’t misquote me so you can attack a point that hasn’t been made, that is dishonest, just like calling me troll after I’ve posted for all most 3 years on this site is also dishonest.

    By the way, I can talk about whatever I please in the scope of the discussion, that includes disagreeing with the author of the piece and any posters as I see fit. Her disclaimer, like your name calling doesn’t prove me wrong.

  • yeahright2011

    Being a social novice isn’t a crime, neither is expressing the frustration associated with that. Men don’t get used for sex but they do get used for their labor, money, even supporting children under false paternity.or after the father ops out. Very few women will be used in that fashion but the results are just as devastating as a sexual investment under false pretenses. “Smart men” in this case are the result of exposure/experience, not intelligence per se.

  • mr.fierce

    Women dont know how to approach a man, they just know how to sit there “on that hairy fish”, look cute and expect the man to come over with his skill so she can give him a ya or nay….

  • Anthony

    Another nice guy is the man who appoints himself as the “savior” of some woman, usually a very pretty woman who is getting dogged by men or who is forever having financial hardships. This man hangs around hoping one day he will be appreciated for how good he is for the woman he “truly appreciates” who just happens to be hot as hell. This kind of guy can be creepy, and sometimes can end up violently delusional.
    This guy can sometimes hang tough enough that he gets to bed the woman, but needless to say, most of the time, neither party ends of truly happy.

  • Anthony

    “that hairy fish” brought you into this world.

  • Anthony

    The “hairy fish” remark was for mr.fierce.

  • Not So Nice NiceGuy

    This is the truth! I’m 31 years old and I’ve been being honest like the edge guy since i was 22. women tend to appreciate that more.

  • Allie

    These “nice” guys are predator, want to know why. Because people who are nice usually don’t have to say so.

  • lol

    U r awesome.

  • Chelley5483

    @ mr.fierce

    …It’s been that way since the beginning of animal evolution… Even my dog, a female, turns down the d every chance she gets. Now women should go against all innate evolutionary instinct and start approaching men? No..

    That “hairy fish” comment sounds bitter too. Yup, you’re one of the nice guys I think they’re talking about. Please DO NOT assume that a woman who likes to look nice and present herself in a way you or other men are attracted to expects a thing from you. I know many women who are married, wouldn’t think about cheating on their husbands, who just so happen to like to look nice and have no interest whatsoever in men coming up to them with their “skill” to waste their time giving out yays or nays. Who’s doing that?! There goes that sense of entitlement again, a chick over there looking cute must be doing it for anything other than the fact that it’s simply her personal style, must mean she wants my “skilled” penis. NOOOOO.. A chick can’t help if she’s cute, damn! That doesn’t mean she’s expecting a damn thing from anyone. Get your shit together mr.fierce.

  • Ange B

    Agreed!

  • Ange B

    Those types are the scariest in my opinion. I totally did the whole blocking thing as well. Like buddy get over yourself or what I would like to say is go get yourself (mind) checked out! It is oddly normal but the behaviour/reaction really isn’t consducive to forming relationships at all.

  • Ange B

    That’s messed up but I’m glad he did it in front of your Mom! Anyone who would be that disrespectful in front of you and your parent for sure has some problems. You got to see the real him and had a witness too!

  • The Moon in the Sky

    A man is a man, but a woman is a girl. Why?

  • Bgirl

    Agreed! My twitter and facebook feed are filled with these types of guys. I’m so over the nice guy plight because I have dealt with these kind of men and they are anything BUT nice when you really get to know them. I always say, that at least with these so-called thugs, you know what they are all about. I can’t deal with these “nice guys” with an extreme sense of entitlement who puts on a facade just to get something in return. If you are a genuinely good person, then you will never have a problem finding someone who loves you and appreciate you for it.

  • MOKES

    i’ve seen plenty of women get up with jerks and complain there aint any good guys around. bottom line dealing with other humans is tough. women’s action show for the most part they want a bad boy- however i’ve seen women with good guys and get clowned by their friends for keeping them

  • Tee tee

    I’m so sorry you experienced this – but i died here

    >> I said nicely I thought we worked better as friends. What did I say that for?! He said “You black bitches-”, and I just hung up.<<<

    *__* woah!

  • http://gravatar.com/triggerhappyvampire triggerhappyvampire

    ^^^^^THIS

  • http://gravatar.com/triggerhappyvampire triggerhappyvampire

    Pretty much. It’s like the paper cut of dating. If that’s the WORST you get, you are lucky. And if you can’t handle it, you shouldn’t be dating anyone at all until you get yourself together.

  • http://gravatar.com/triggerhappyvampire triggerhappyvampire

    The hardest thing sometimes is not laughing like a hyena when they whine about how ‘women only date jerks WAAH’.

    And it is all I can do sometimes to hold myself back from saying, “If that were true, you’d be up to your eyeballs in women, because you are the biggest jerk I’ve ever met!”

  • http://gravatar.com/triggerhappyvampire triggerhappyvampire

    I totally agree that ‘nice’ should be a baseline requirement for choice in dating partner. Kind of like ‘has a pulse’ and ‘can walk and chew gum at the same time’, you know?

  • http://gravatar.com/cocovabarbie KemaVAa

    “some of these men actually have disorders like Aspergers”

    This!! It makes sense when a man with aspergers learns that women like ‘nice guys’ and then is uspet when he doesnt succeed. Some of these guys are not a$$holes. They are taking the steps they believe are the ones to woo you.

  • shoSTOPPER

    a that’s being nice to get a woman is not really a real nice guy- he just approaches differently that other dudes. some guys know how to handle rejection better and when a woman turns them down they are like whatever and move on to the next one.

  • Not So Nice NiceGuy

    There’s a huge difference between a nice guy and a gentleman. A nice guy is like a sad puppy. Eventually someone feels sorry for him and takes him in, but that’s not really what they want. A gentleman is more of a charming go getter who has a chivalrous personality. Women want that. Ladies, do i stand correct?

  • Gina Wild

    Amen! Good summary.

  • Albatros

    The Nice Guy syndrome is real, and that’s very sad. I wish schools were teaching courtship/dating to these young men in junior high because these poor guys are really ill-equipped when it comes the art of attraction.

    It’s funny because most of come from stable homes, have good relationships with their mothers and female relatives, had good grades in school and have university degrees, are polite and well behaved, respectful and all. However, they were never taught courtship. With all the good background they have, they assume they are a great catch. Unfortunately the dating world doesn’t work like that.

    When they meet women they like, they’ll put them on a pedestal. They give them too much value too soon. That’s NEVER GOOD. At the early stage of dating they give these women cute nicknames, pay for them every time they go out, worship them and all.

    Some of them are introvert and sensitive. No bueno! Therefore, when they get rejected they sometimes snap and do or say ugly things. They feel like women should tell they’re good men.

    I know all of this because I used to be a nice guy. Not anymore. Thanks to the PUA’s and the abundant online resources.

  • simplyme

    So true.

    As someone who has always preferred guys of the kinder variety I think this new crop of “nice guys” or “good guys” are ruining it for the real nice guys.

    I was raised to be good to people because its “who you are”… not in order to get something in return. If you are nice to someone and they are “mean” to you, you keep being yourself and don’t take it personally. So when I hear about all these complaining self proclaimed nice guys I have wonder…are you really nice or are you trying to complete a transaction?

    I think a good way to determine a guy’s character is to look at who he’s nice to. Is he only kind to women? Or to everyone? When a guy holds a door for you its one thing, but if I see a guy hold a door or go out of his way to do something for another man or an older lady… it means something completely different.

  • dbsm

    don’t speak in absolutes. i use men for sex. they know it. they claim to like the honesty. i don’t want their labor (other than sexual labor): my hands and feet work just fine. i don’t want their money: mine is just fine and more fulfilling. and i don’t need any man to support my kids, especially when the one who is supposed to still isn’t getting it right.

  • Anthony

    Albatros, now that I am older, I see what my elders meant when they said to focus on your work, and not get too caught up chasing women. If you have “it,” you will get women whether you are homeless or a millionaire. If you don’t have “it” you will get women too once you truly become comfortable in your own skin. Every man is not meant to be a player. Every man is not meant to have dozens of sexual conquests in his life. Every man is not going to sleep with pinup lookalikes on a regular basis. Some will never get their hands a really fine looking woman. That said, sex with a “fine woman” and a “plain” woman feels exactly the same!

    Albatros, the reason “nice guys” put women they pursue on pedestals is that they have idealized or objectified what they consider to be beautiful women.
    These nice guys need to hook up with women they like instead of women they worship, and have real relationships with them without all of the bullshit.

  • Anthony

    Yeahright2011, you wrote some interesting posts. It would be interesting to see what kind of response you would get if you wrote an entire article. I agree with you in principle that women can be cruel to genuinely nice, but naive men. Naive or inexperienced men are different from the “nice guy” who is tone deaf and forever chases women who show him no interest.

  • BettiePAge

    what you said is true..but women won’t admit it- i’m a woman and i admit it- i used to love jerks not any more- women won’t say it outloud but they think that guys who act that way are manly- no they are not manly they are mean and girls like dudes like that– then they complain the thug aint treating them right- just like guys dont like nice girls- they like girls who pretend to be nice and then mistreat them

  • Youwishyoucouldbeme

    It’s always funny to me when guys say this. It’s not that your comment can’t be true. It’s just that the guys that actually say this are often the ones who chase the “dime” piece women and then get surprised when they didn’t choose you. What’s wrong with most people is that they choose people who don’t want them, because most people value what they can’t have.

  • http://gravatar.com/pocketsizednegro Courtney**

    Get the fuck out of here.

    “When the boy goes out and realizes that most women don’t return his kind behavior and even disrespect him for behaving in that manner, and that the boys who are most successful with the girls are disrespectful, selfish, and abusive, he grows resentful, angry, and frustrated. That is the basis for overt misogyny among young black men in our culture.”

    Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that the BASIS for young black mens’ misogyny isn’t a lack of a good father or father figure to model respecting women… it isn’t the music, movies. and other cultural artifacts that glamorize treating women as things… it isn’t a general misogyny that runs amongst all races of men, magnified in black men due to their relative lack of power in other areas… it’s that BLACK WOMEN RAISED THEM TO RESPECT GIRLS TOO MUCH AND BE TOO NICE TO THEM?

    What fucking planet are you from, because I’d like to visit there someday. Hell, all single black women would like to take a trip there. This magical land where most black men grew up to be kind and nice and respectful to black women, not run to Beckies and blame black women for it, not encourage colorism, etc. etc. etc. This magical land where black women didn’t suffer the highest rate of domestic violence deaths and where women like to “accuse” men of being sociopaths for shits and giggles, like the rate of stalking/rapes/violence against women isn’t prima facie proof that this isn’t stuff we like to say because we think it’s cute. This land where men really don’t hate women, and if they do, it’s all because they originally were super duper nice but you know how much we women are averse to not being beaten/stalked/harrassed/killed, so they just had no choice but to turn into one of those guys.

    Have several seats, sir. I will accept no such “responsibility” for men who hate me. In fact, those “sociopaths” you think we like to make up OFTEN DO START OUT as those charming, polite-to-a-fault, respectful men. If you had any idea what the hell you were talking about, you’d know that’s their goddamn M.O. So, what… these women are initially attracted to these men who hold open doors for them, send them flowers, listen to them, support them, only to later isolate them and insult/abuse them…and they just kind of realize that the abuse is more attractive?

  • http://effortless-attraction.com/ Why women don’t like nice guys

    When the boy goes out and realizes that most women don’t return his kind behavior and even disrespect him for behaving in that manner, and that the boys who are most successful with the girls are disrespectful, selfish, and abusive, he grows resentful, angry, and frustrated.So, what… these women are initially attracted to these men who hold open doors for them, send them flowers, listen to them, support them, only to later isolate them and insult/abuse them…and they just kind of realize that the abuse is more attractive? Thanks a lot.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Let’s be real for a second. If you’re batting 2 for 100, you’re gonna ride the bench.

    –Cobra

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    That’s the biggest endorsement for player behavior I’ve seen in comments so far.

    I’m not saying player behavior is “wrong” per se, but it is what it is.

    –Cobra

  • Sarah Lund a.k.a Sarah Stark

    Believe me, a TRULY nice guy, is one who doesn’t even mention how “nice” he supposedly is . And also, when they start kicking up a fuss, all because they didn’t get you into their bed, then it’s just as well they showed you their true colours. The very one’s they thought they could hide ;). It amazes me how many men (some, not all) sometimes think they’re dating you suddenly, just because you struck up a conversation with them. Honestly. lol. Really? Oh but even though you were only talking to him, you must surely know you’re both getting married tomorrow? Ummmmm, I don’t think so. Maybe I’m just one of those women who “can’t see how beautiful/pretty she really is”, but stalkers are annoying. And it’s always the men you aren’t attracted to. lol. I would constantly get e-mails from men wanting to arrange “something”, and yes they flirted with me, but the only way to rid of a stalker is to totally vanish to somewhere, where they don’t know you’d be. I am in the process of doing that. Just awful that I have to leave my home, all because someone was too obssessed with me.

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