Dealbreaker: The Guy Who “Forgot” His Wallet

by The Frisky

WalletI feel like a traitor to my feminist values to admit this, but I expect the guy to pay for the first date. I know, I know!  That is the lone issue about which I’m a traditionalist and perhaps it comes from my father.  He has taught me myriad important lessons: respect for nature, how to ride a bike, and that men should always pay for the first date, no exceptions. My dad is a true product of the 1950′s and he has long instructed me to leave my wallet at home when I go on a first date (not figuratively—literally don’t bring any cash because the man should pay and that’s that). While I agree with my dad, I’ve chosen to ignore his suggestion and show up on first dates with my wallet … just in case.

Recently, I went on a date with a handsome fellow Brooklynite. He had arrived on foot to the date since he lived nearby and it was an unseasonably warm evening (note that he walked, so didn’t have to deal with a subway pass or cash for a cab—store that tidbit away for later). We had planned to meet at a local bar of my choosing, but there was a private event at that venue, so we walked around a bit and ended up at my favorite Italian restaurant and wine bar. We sat at the lovely marble bar and ordered wine (by the glass). I suspect that neither of us wanted to order a full bottle and strap in for the potential hour’s worth of stilted conversation with a stranger we weren’t sure if we liked yet, so we took it glass by glass, which adds up quickly. After quite a few glasses, he suggested that we split an entrée and I rolled with the punches even though I wasn’t especially hungry.

Conversation was good, but I wasn’t sure whether or not a second date was in our future, so when the check arrived I was going to see how he played it and, against the rules of my dad, I was planning to offer to pay for half. In my sophisticated and somewhat illogical hierarchy of principles, letting a guy who I’m not sure I’m interested pay for a first date is a worse offense than a guy I am interested in not offering to pay for a first date. I just never want to take advantage of anyone and that’s how I’d feel if I had let him pay for everything with no assurance that we’d see each other again. So in this instance, I was ready and willing to go Dutch.

The check arrived and I began my elaborate routine of digging through my purse to look for my wallet while waiting for him to stop me because he’d inevitably insist on paying. That’s just the dance of the first date. But I truly wanted to pay for half, so I’d offer that and insist and we’d see where the chips fell on the floor of this wine bar, so to speak. My purse digging routine went on for a while and he said nothing to shoo me away from searching for my wallet. Rather, HE spent an inordinate amount of time digging through his jacket pockets and emptying their contents onto the bar: his apartment keys, his iPhone, his ear buds. Each item was carefully and deliberately pulled out of the pockets as though he were a prosecutor presenting his evidence to the jury. After this display he uttered something that sounded a line of dialogue from an unconvincing actor,“Huh…well I must have left my wallet at home.”

“Oh my goodness! Did you lose it?  Can you remember when you last had it?” I reacted with enough emotion for both of us, as one normally does when one’s wallet is suddenly missing.

“I had it at my apartment before I left … I’m sure I did. I must have just left it at my apartment. This is embarrassing,” he said with suspiciously flat affect.

I squinted my eyes and stared at him as I attempted to read the situation.  I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he was an honest person who had genuinely, accidentally left his wallet at home. After all, he had walked to our date so the facts lined up that he wouldn’t have realized his wallet was missing until now, $100 worth of wine and food later.

But the no-nonsense city gal in me chimed in, Come on, Selena—isn’t it convenient that he “forgot” his wallet? You’ve seen “Dirty Rotten Scoundrels,” so you know that some guys manipulate situations like this to fill the pawn with self-doubt in order to get what they want.  In that movie it was much bigger scores, but with this guy it would seem to be a few glasses of wine and dinner. Don’t be a fool–he’s a mooch, a grifter, and you’re just a pawn!

But he was so well-dressed—surely his finances weren’t so tight that he needed to hustle ladies for free drinks and food. Look at that starched, dry cleaned collar!  Or was that part of the manipulation? Dress like you’re a classy guy who has money, then the story that you simply “forgot” your wallet carries more weight.  I was so torn!

As these two lines of reasoning volleyed back and forth in my head, my date sat there and remained stunningly calm and matter-of-fact about the whole thing.  I wanted to give him notes like a film director to an actor, Listen buddy, if you’re going to use first dates to score free drinks and food, ya might want to SELL the whole “forgotten wallet” schtick a bit more. Just act more shocked and nervous—like how you would act if you had truly had forgotten your wallet. OK?  Great–let’s try it again, but this time with feeling.

I had to make a decision then and there, though. There was no take two. Perhaps I should have asked him to mail me a check for his half. Perhaps he should have offered to do that without any prompting. Perhaps I should have paid only my half of the bill and left him at the wine bar to wash $50 plus tip worth of dishes (or whatever task a restaurant supposedly makes penniless customers do these days). But I didn’t want to leave my lovely local wine bar in the lurch, either. So I smiled and ponied up $100 for drinks and food with a guy who was either forgetful and unemotional or a master manipulator—I’m still not sure.

He walked me to my apartment where we hugged goodbye as he said that the next date would be “on him” and I thought, There’s not going to be another date. And sure enough there wasn’t—no worthwhile follow up from him, no suggestion of another date. And that was just fine with me.

 

This post originally appeared on The Frisky. Republished with permission.

  • talaktochoba

    common, daughter, you can’t possibly be that easy living in a city, can you?

    why didn’t you just order dessert, disappear to the ladies room and somehow wind up hailing a cab at the door?

    he could’ve easily left his iPhone as collateral whilst he dashed back to his flat–i’ve had to leave my driver’s license > once for being so foolish when young;

    each time i made a point to seek out the woman i wronged-and in fact married one of them;

  • http://twitter.com/Author_JGail Teflon Jawn (@Author_JGail)

    I think in that case you wait until he walks home and gets his wallet. To put you in that position… what a herb :/ Listen to your Dad, a gentleman will pay the bill.

  • cosmicsistren

    smh…guys can be a real trip. If that happened to me I wouldn’t have been able to contain my anger.

  • http://www.myblackfriendsays.com myblackfriendsays

    100 bucks for wine and a split entree? I am glad I don’t live in Brooklyn :p

  • JS

    THIS. The fact that he did not offer to run back and get it is VERY low down and dirty.

  • stef

    LMAO, Dating in the 21st century
    1.your dates ( especially a bad one) will become a blog
    2.Everybody is trying to get over on each other.
    3, its ok if a man spends +100 and you dont call him but when its happens to you its sucks. I bet she really wanted to go with him again just so you can get that money back lol

  • http://www.urbanexpressive.com J. Nicole

    I always carry my wallet with me. In fact, it was an ex who told me to do that- you never know when you’ll be in a situation where you need money to dash out.

    Regarding this situation, it was obvious what he was up to. I would have told him I was going to the atm, went home & let him figure it out. I understand feeling bad about stiffing the restaurant but they have insurance…and if your bill came up to $100 they were overcharging you anyways. Life long BK resident here, even w/ gentrification that is a rip off.

  • Orange Starr Happy Hunting

    What a cad!

  • Orange Starr Happy Hunting

    Well I do recall the author stating she was already going to pay for half because she was not ok with a dude she wasn’t interested in spending a ball on the date.

  • swade85

    Soooooo, it’s okay for a man to pay for the whole date but if a woman does it, no second date?

  • swade85

    You do realize the author said she wasn’t sure that there was going to be a second date BEFORE the bill arrived. After the whole ordeal, she made up her mind that she indeed DID NOT WANT TO SEE HIM AGAIN AFTER SHE WAS FORCED TO PAY THE WHOLE BILL. Reread EXACTLY what she wrote.

  • Sasha

    Either you’re being obtuse or you’re not reading for nuance. Given the context clues she’s given about the situation I think any active reader could assess the situation for exactly what it was.

  • http://halloftheblackdragon.com Greg Dragon

    Don’t waste your time here bro.

  • http://thebrokejetsetter.com Becca

    As soon as I read the title, I said “ewwwww”.

    Maybe that says something about me? lol

  • Orange Starr Happy Hunting

    What part of this dude running a scam did you miss?

  • JS

    Everyone should walk into the date expecting to pay half of their meal. If a man wants to submit to traditional gender roles and pay it all? Fine. If a woman feels as she wants to pay for the entire meal? Fine. If they both decide for whatever reason to keep it casual without one feeling they “owe” the other and go dutch? Also fine.

    What ISN’T fine is someone walking into the situation, male or female, with no intentions of paying at all for at least their own part. The author of this article came prepared to pay for at least her half. The man isn’t stupid. From his sorry response and lack of nervousness or embarrassment you can tell he was trying to get a free meal. They did not take public transportation to get there and both lived in the neighborhood, why not run back and get the wallet? Why assume the woman had enough money or even wanted to pay for it all?

    No second date? Completely on that guy. Although he offered to pay for the second he made no follow up offer or effort to contact. What he did was an equivalent of “dine and dash.”

  • http://gravatar.com/missinformation7 Ms. Information

    If he was a good guy, he would have called her and returned her money (at least for his portion).

  • swade85

    Hahaha…you have got to be kidding me. Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what I read she stated he left his wallet at home accidently. (Things like that can happen. You think you’re wearing one pair of jeans and at the last minute you change your mind and forget you left your wallet in the first pair). After accidently leaving his wallet, he DID mention that he would pay the whole date next time. I could understand if the second date he didn’t pay the whole thing like he promised. But since she wanted to go dutch and pay half, was she going to pay half the next date also? Two halves equal a whole. Two dates equal two whole’s. She paid the first whole, he would pay the second whole. She could’ve missed out on her soulmate.

  • swade85

    Lol, listen to yourself. So his worth as a good man or not is solely based on his mistake of leaving his wallet? Did he not say that he would pay for the next bill entirely? You ladies are looking at the negative aspect of it, but lets look at the human aspect. What is the possibilities that he accidently left his wallet and he was indeed going to pay for the entire second date? What if they really hit it off on the second date and laugh about how silly it was for him to leave his wallet. That’s a first date story you could of been telling your grandkids when they ask how the first date was.

  • Sasha

    Context clues, as learned by 5th grade.

    -Rather, HE spent an inordinate amount of time digging through his jacket pockets and emptying their contents onto the bar: his apartment keys, his iPhone, his ear buds. Each item was carefully and deliberately pulled out of the pockets as though he were a prosecutor presenting his evidence to the jury. After this display he uttered something that sounded a line of dialogue from an unconvincing actor,“Huh…well I must have left my wallet at home.

    -“I had it at my apartment before I left … I’m sure I did. I must have just left it at my apartment. This is embarrassing,” he said with suspiciously flat affect.

    -We hugged goodbye as he said that the next date would be “on him” and I thought, There’s not going to be another date. And sure enough there wasn’t—no worthwhile follow up from him, no suggestion of another date.

    Other factor to consider: He walked to the venue which means it was not too far for him to walk back and retrieve his wallet. I’m sure she did not mind waiting. This fellow knew exactly what he was doing. Sorry, try again.

  • http://thebrokejetsetter.com Becca

    “He walked me to my apartment where we hugged goodbye as he said that the next date would be “on him” and I thought, There’s not going to be another date. And sure enough there wasn’t—no worthwhile follow up from him, no suggestion of another date.”

    Why are you so quick to defend him? He didn’t even care enough to follow up, apologize, or ask her on the second date.

    Watchu meeeeeeeeeeean?!

  • swade85

    The reason this is hilarious to me is because I was this guy once. I accidently left my wallet at home. I offered to pay for the second date in which I did. After the second date, we hit it off, and we were together for almost a year before I moved away. Through the year long relationship, I paid for 85% of our activities. So when a woman pays, it’s a scam. When a man pays, it’s chivalrous? I thought women can do anything men can do. If it was the 1950′s, he would of went back home and paid her that night. But, it’s not 1950, it’s 2013. Women can’t pick and choose which 1950′s value’s benefits them the most and throw out everything else. It doesn’t work like that and it will never work like that.

  • http://thebrokejetsetter.com Becca

    Clearly you didn’t read the whole article. Honest mistake my nyansh.

  • http://gravatar.com/rena215 rena215

    @Swade85

    Your point about offering to pay for the second date would have been valid IF he asked her out on a second date (even if she refused the second date), but he did not. Note the author stated there was no meaningful follow up from him afterward. In the event he did not offer a second date, the decent thing to do would have been to send her his portion of the expenses from the first date.

    Did you even read the article?

  • Starla

    I was raised in a culture where a man pays. It would be considered offensive for a man to sit at the table and let the woman pay his way. So for me, that is something I expect. The only time a man would allow a woman to pay for him is if it was a treat, a birthday or a reward for something.

    Girl, you must have missed the Ugly Betty episode about this very thing.lol. The mere fact that he suggested for y’all to share an entree gave me cause to pause. I have never had a man tell me to share an entree. He may say let us order a few appetizers instead of a full meal, but never let’s share an entree.

  • talaktochoba

    look, admittedly the boy (and i’m old enough to call him that to his face with only the love of a father) made a myriad of mistakes, but he is a MALE–hello, that’s what we do!

    the point is, he didn’t bumble forward into the one correction that makes our mistakes so lovable by you women (good thing for us, or we’d never get anything done!)

    in other words, as my old football coach used to say, “Keep running the play over til you get it right!”

    nowhere in that statement did i see giving up or quitting as an option–but then, the boy will learn that as he becomes a man…

  • JS

    Girl, I thought I was the only one who peeped that! NEVER heard of a guy wanting to share something. I’ve shared entrees with guys but its it was because I wanted the entree but wasn’t very hungry and they have always ordered additional appetizers/entrees to make up for the food they weren’t getting lol.

  • talaktochoba

    no, he only THINKS he knew aha he was doing;

    that is one why she should’ve ordered dessert, slipped off to powder her nose and left him there;

    clearly his father failed him and his mother cries quietly when her son is not looking;

    sometimes it does fall upon the female to education us a little roughly–how else are we gonna learn to respect you?

  • Excuses are the tools of the incompetent

    Bye. Suede.

  • http://gravatar.com/rastaman1967 rastaman

    People would not feel like they were getting played if you all had an expectation to pay for your own damn meals. I am not against men paying for women on a date, I done enough of it in my lifetime but I do know I resent that sense of entitlement that too many women seem to bring to these encounters. A sense of entitlement I see played out in this piece and the comment section.
    Dude was probably a scoundrel but I think more women should feel the whip of this type scammming so that they can gain a greater appreciation of proper dating etiquette. Rummaging around in your purse and feigning like you want to pay when you don’t intend to or offering to contribute when you don’t want to …all that BS is not cute. Either you in or you out be a woman about it.

  • http://gravatar.com/nolakiss16 binks

    Agreed!

  • sierra tango oscar mike yankee

    I always pay when I’m on a first date. And I’ve realized that the Caucasian girls always offered to pay half but I insisted on paying, And they always insist on paying on the second date. Now, when I was on a first date with an Afro woman she’d just sit there and wait for me to pay. I want to believe this is a coincidence but….

  • Pseudonym

    I keep seeing comments misconstruing the idea of gender equality. The purpose of gender equality is not for men and women to be exactly the same and split the bills on dates 50/50, the purpose of gender equality is for the work, contributions, and existence of men and women to be valued equally (as opposed to before women’s lib when women were treated as property, with no more rights than a toothbrush).

    I have absolutely no desire to be a man (being a woman is AWESOME!), but I will not be treated as less than any man simply because I am a woman. THAT’s women’s lib. And any decent man understands that and isn’t crying over spending $25-30 on a date- even $50. (And if he is, he needs to be focusing on getting his finances in order instead of worrying about women.)

  • D

    Let’s be super realistic here: if there was even a scintilla of a chance that he was going to get some booty that bill would have been paid in full with no issue…whether he ran back to his crib or miraculously found his wallet in the inside lining of his jacket….LOL

    That said, this sense of entitlement that women still have for free first date food and drinks is NAUSEATING. Especially if she’s a feminist. If she’s a traditional woman, I can dig it. But you can’t be a feminist in every area except money. “My daddy said….” If her father is a real 1950s father, I’m sure he had a few other thoughts on gender roles that she ignores daily. I guarantee she feels the same way about dates 2 through 50. Men pay.

    I think men should use that as a litmus test on future dates.
    “Are you a feminist?”
    “Why yes I am?”
    “I respect that. You must want to go Dutch. That’s fine with me.”

    It’d be worth it just to watch her head explode….LOL.

    P.S. I wonder what percentage of non-relationship Dutch dates actually end in sex. I’d guess less than 3%.

  • D

    Doesn’t want to be property.

    But wants to be purchased.

    Got it.

  • Wong Chia Chi

    This just made me laauugh so hard.

  • Hello

    You know the same can be said in reverse. When I get asked on a date by a white guy he doesn’t expect for me to pay. By the time the bill comes his credit card is already on the table. I think some white men find it insulting if you offer to pay because they like taking care of a woman. But with black dudes there always seems to be this vibe of “is she even going to offer?” I don’t want to go out on a date with someone who asked me out then feel tension when the bill comes.

    If you don’t value a woman enough to pay for a date with her maybe you shouldn’t ask her out on a date in the first place? Just a thought.

    To be fair, if a woman does the asking yes she should be ready to pay.

  • Pseudonym

    Who says paying for a date is “purchase?” I treat my friends to dinner, I’ve treated co-workers to dinner, and I’ve treated family to dinner. In none of those situations was I purchasing the other person (or expecting sexual behaviors in return), so why make that assumption that something’s for sale bc I’m going on a date?

    I guess instead of trying to explain to men what gender equality means, I should just take bitterness about paying for a date as a sign of incompatibility and keep it moving. Do you not treat friends, family, coworkers/ employees to meals sometimes? An if you can do that, why can’t you do the same for a woman? It’s such a pathetic and passive aggressive mind state.

    Anywhoo, as I said, I don’t want to be a man and I like the idea of two people coexisting in a partnership where eac person contributes their strengths and those strengths are equally valued. And I can afford to eat at a restaurant and will not date a broke man who cries over a twenty dollar bill.

  • Pseudonym

    BUT I will add that I am totally against women who go on dates just for free meals and entertainment. (I’ve heard this mentioned before- very rare occasions, but soooooo tacky!) That’s NOT supposed to be the point.

    Another benefit of dating is that it forced people to really take time to consider if they really like the person- that’s why letting a man come over and chill at your place after one date and no commitment is a bad idea if you’re looking for a real relationship, IMO. I like having the barrier that keeps away any men who don’t think I’m worth their money (which translates into not really being worth their time, but easy sex is easy and fun and I don’t blame them for taking it). Plus, once the relationship is committed, we principally start eating on my grocery bill, so it evens out in the end- if a man is really in it for a relationship and not just sex. Now, if you’re just out for sex, that’s a different story.

  • Hello

    One more thing to consider. When those women offer to pay, maybe it’s because they think you can’t really afford the bill on your own. Are you comfortable with that?

  • Beks

    waaiiiittt a minute.
    buying dinner = purchasing?
    I hope you aren’t black.
    with our history of actual chattel slavery in the US you need to be more
    careful
    thoughful
    ‘shamefull’
    with using this imagery to discuss something as innocuous as a date between folk.

    -but you don’t hear me though. respect your ancestors.

  • JaeBee

    I agree, but what if he went back home to get his wallet and never returned…

  • Beks

    How about when women actually achieve equality…hmmmm. like say pay equality…then we split the bill?

  • talaktochoba

    common, she’s a date, not a slave!

    and as a date, she is entitled to a certain level of quality of treatment from the man;

    this guy flat didn’t treat her with the level of respect she is entitled to for affording him her accompaniment–and like pride, you cannot put a price on respect;

    the principle would’ve been the same if he’d taken her to McDonalds or Sardi’s;

  • JaeBee

    ” it’s not 1950, it’s 2013. Women can’t pick and choose which 1950′s value’s benefits them the most and throw out everything else.”

    Why not? Men do it all the time. It’s the very reason why women, on average, continue to earn less money than men doing the same job, why women continue to be expected to do the majority of housekeeping (even when they hold a full-time job just like their male partners), why women are still expected to sacrifice career ambitions/goals to be the primary caregivers/caretakers of children and other relatives who may need assistance/care (never hear debates about working men vs. stay at home men), why men expect that the women they court have not been as sexually promiscous as they (the man) has been…

    Don’t try to pin this all women! Men definitely want their slice of 1950′s cake (when it comes to certain expectations about women’s behavior)–and they want to eat it to!

  • sierra tango oscar mike yankee

    @hello. As I said in my comment I always paid when I went on dates. Still, I and many other men appreciate it when women offer to pay. Don’t just sit there and act as if it’s the man’s duty to always pay. We’re living in 2013!

    Oh by the way, I’m not a “brother”. You say the women who offered to pay on the dates think I can’t afford it? That’s cute! Seriously, I may not be rich but I own my place, and have a career not a job.
    Do the white guys that pay for you do so because they think you can’t afford it? Trust me, they’ll still appreciate if you offered to pay. And you always offer to.

  • Gina Wild

    Maybe.Just maybe the guy forgot his wallet, and was truly embarrased. Just pay the damn bill and call it a night. Men pay on first dates all the time. No biggie. A woman pays, and all hell breaks loose. Why is that?

  • JaeBee

    ” What happen to equality?”

    Please stop trying to act as if things are equal between women and men–when they are clearly NOT!

    And please stop being obtuse…a woman asking to be paid fairly and equally to a man who is doing the very same job is “apples and oranges” to a woman expecting that a man who is courting her, and who has invited her out on a date, will pay the dinner bill at the end of the night.

  • talaktochoba

    NO;

    equality has nothing to do with it, seeing as men and women can never be equal in the first place;

    this is all about respect and honour, and this boy has neither, nor knows money cannot buy either one;

  • talaktochoba

    wrong again–1950 or 2013, men are still men and so owe all women a level of respect commensurate with their interrelationship with them;

    a date is a special interrelationship deserving of a special respect from him;

    that, ladies and gentlemen, is called HONOUR…and any man without honour is LESS than nothing;

  • JaeBee

    “People would not feel like they were getting played if you all had an expectation to pay for your own damn meals.”

    Although the author did not specify, if she was the one invited on the date then I don’t see why her expectations of not having to pay would be seen as a sense of entitlement. I liken it to a host inviting someone over their house for dinner. Sure, it would be “nice” if the guest paid for their part of the meal, but as a host I would never think to charge the guest for my generosity. If I invite someone over to my house to spend time with me, it’s not about the money and making sure everything is “fair, square, and equal”–it’s about having the opportunity to enjoy the company of the other person. Sometimes guests will want to contribute to the evening by bringing along a dessert or a bottle of wine, but if they don’t then I don’t think any less of them and certainly don’t feel that they are acting “entitled” to my treating them hospitably.

  • JaeBee

    “When those women offer to pay, maybe it’s because they think you can’t really afford the bill on your own.”

    Another thing to consider is that many women often feel guilty about having a guy pay for their dinner when they don’t have any intentions of furthering the relationship or going on other dates. A woman who is insistent about paying her own way on the first date may be a red flag that this will be the last one you ever get with her.

  • JaeBee

    “Maybe.Just maybe the guy forgot his wallet, and was truly embarrased.”

    Apparently he wasn’t embarrassed enough to run home and get his wallet, or to send her his half of the bill at a later date..

    “A woman pays, and all hell breaks loose. Why is that?”

    Well, if he’s the one trying to court her and he was the one who invited her out on a date why should she have to (or be expected to) pay anything? That’s like me promising to take a friend out to do something special and then not making any effort to do something special for them at all. Better yet–I promise to take them on a special outing and not only do I make them pay for themselves, but I also have them pay for my share of the bill as well. Are you freakin kidding me?!

  • Hello

    Hmm, don’t think I called you a “brother,” I use that term very sparingly nowadays.

    But to the real point, doesn’t matter if it’s 2013 or 1913, if a man asks a woman out for a date he should pay and not make her feel guilty if she doesn’t start pulling out cash (as I said, vice versa applies). Basic courtesy and common sense seems to be going the way of the dinosaurs these days with some folks.

  • sierra tango oscar mike yankee

    @JaeBee. In my initial comment I wrote that the women offered to pay, I insisted on paying and they insisted on paying on the second date. They didn’t insist to pay on the first date.
    I know if a woman insisted on paying on the first date could be a red flag.
    Bottom line is a woman should offer to pay and see how the guy reacts and you’ll go from there…

  • lol

    are you unattractive? lol

  • justanotheropinion

    I must be a mixed bag of tricks! Whomever does the asking for the first date should pay – man or woman. They are the ones that put themselves out there, they should be the one planning it, so they should pay as they know what they can afford and should plan accordingly. You can have a wonderful cheap date (picnic in the park that lasts for hours based on the vibes) and a horrible expensive date (pricey restaurant w/a horrible companion that you can’t wait to get away from).

    After that, a woman should offer to chip in or even pay for the date (even if he did the asking). If the date idea is hers, she should be prepared to pay (you shouldn’t expect HIM to pay for your fabulous date idea). Gives you a chance to see what he’s about and how he reacts. Also let’s you NOT feel like you and your time are being purchased. But if you offer, be prepared to kick in.

    How you start out is how you’ll finish. If it’s all about the money in the beginning, it will never change. But if you are two responsible adults who are looking to enjoy the other person without the hang ups, they money won’t be an issue.

  • JaeBee

    Women wanted to be treated as human beings who were competent enough to make decisions about their own life and had the legal backing to do so. Women’s lib has/had NOTHING to do with who pays on a date.

  • JaeBee

    “@JaeBee. In my initial comment I wrote that the women offered to pay, I insisted on paying and they insisted on paying on the second date. They didn’t insist to pay on the first date.”

    Makes little difference…I usually will give a guy a second chance/date because I know that there’s a lot of pressure associated with a first date and they may have been too nervous to be on their “A game”. Even so, if I’m not feelin it the second date I’m usually insisting on paying my share–which pretty much means “this is it!”.

  • JaeBee

    @thetruth

    Have you been drafted? If not, then please take a whole stadium of seats!!!

  • Drebin

    Women are equal to men, therefore….pay for your own dang date. Go dutch best way to go, none of this picking and choosing what parts of patriarchy to take..

  • Pseudonym

    Exactly! Me paying on a date (early on before being in a relationship) means I have no intention of going on any future dates. So far, I can usually tell if I want to date someone after the second date- once I went for a third “tie-breaker” (that I paid for after deciding the answer was “No.”).

    That story comparing white women to black women was just pathetic race-baiting. No one should even address it. I’m sure that’s completely made up.

  • Pseudonym

    @Spiritual: Or perhaps you are either (1) super broke and need to get your finance together since you can’t afford a simple dinner date or (2) super tight and thrifty with your money and need to date someone who you can take to McDonald’s and make pay for her value meal (b/c married people share finances, so you need someone just as cheap to make it work). Just own up to which one you are and stop trying to obfuscate that fact with this bitter BS equality retort.

  • Joan

    The fact that he didn’t offer to go home and get it or have someone bring it for him speaks volumes. Also, let me just add that if a man is really serious and excited about a certain date, he is going to make sure that he has his wallet before he leaves. You might even see him feel for it when he approaches you. LOL.

  • Pseudonym

    Patriarchy has its advantages and disadvantages and- actually- every woman has the complete right to choose which parts she would like to take or reject for her own life. Same goes for men, too. If you want a woman to pay for the date, buy you an engagement ring and propose to you, and let you stay home and take care of the kids while she works, then hopefully you can find a woman who will be down with that program and be merry. But don’t negatively judge the standard that other people have set for themselves. We all have a right to our standards and others can either meet them or go on with the next one who wants someone like them.

    If a man doesn’t want to pay for dates (for any reason other than he cannot afford it b/c in grad school or doing Americorps or something low paying like that–which I say you should still be able to afford a date if you’re looking for a real relationship and not just trying to date 30 women for fun), that’s completely his right. I just will not be dating him ever. (Met a guy like that last year and took the paying on the second date to mean we were just friends and he got a rude awakening months later when he tried to make things romantic after us paying separately every single time for months.) Instead of trying to make women who don’t want to pay for their dates pay, just date women who pay for dates. I don’t try to force men who don’t want to pay for dates to pay. I just don’t date them.

  • http://gravatar.com/rastaman1967 rastaman

    Its also bad form to go to someone house when invited with your empty hands….

  • talaktochoba

    what?

    whomever asks whom, if he is the beneficiary of the pleasure of your company, ESPECIALLY for the first time, HE PAYS, PERIOD;

    the mod PC-blending of gender rights and responsibilities under the absurd belief that men and women are equal will only leave very confused and unhappy people in the long run;

    the prime biological objective finds the woman reproduces and the man provides, protects and defends–try as PC might, these facts are incontrovertible and so all life/society is based upon this prime;

    thus, men and women can NEVER be equal–they can perform equivalent tasks, generate equivalent work and in those cases each should be rewarded/paid equally, but this ludicrous notion of the two being equal really has to stop..before biological evolution decrees one is unnecessary;

  • von

    @swade
    after reading all these comments I’m going to guess that you were the guy in the article…

  • http://gravatar.com/rastaman1967 rastaman

    So if she can’t reproduce or do not want to reproduce we go dutch or what?

  • Jae Bee

    Moderators, I accidentally reported Pseudonyms comment. Please disregard. I meant to like it.

  • Jae Bee

    “Its also bad form to go to someone house when invited with your empty hands….”

    I guess that would be considered “bad form” to a host that was tacky enough to expect that a guest should contribute somehow to their own invite. If you as a host have a problem with guests not contributing to your invitation then perhaps you shouldn’t be inviting anyone over.

  • http://gravatar.com/cocovabarbie KemaVA

    I have never paid for a 1st date. I don’t do the fake ‘go for my wallet’ move. I dont see myself doing either in the future. When a man asks to ‘take me out’, I assume he is going to do just that and pay. If a friend (male or female) said they wanted to ‘take me out’ I would assume they were paying as well.

    As others have said equality does not mean same. Equality allows some women to pay and some women to choose not to. Men you are equal in this. If you dont want to pay for dates then don’t. Its as simple as that. But I think you know that. The real issue is that you’re not paying puts you at a disadvantage with men that do pay. You want to revise the system so no man pays. Good luck with that!

  • D

    I am learning a lot about this sense of entitlement women still have.

    So for co-workers, friends and family you’re willing to pay for dates, but not for a man? That’s interesting.

    If a woman pays for a date she’s basically telling the man to kiss off. So for a guy you don’t like, you’ll pay your share. But for a guy you actually like, you won’t pay (I guess because he’s getting sex). LOL….very interesting and ass backwards, but I disgress.

    Any man who expects women to pay on a date is somehow cheap, broke, inconsiderate, dumb, not worthy of another date or otherwise deficient.

    If a man expects a women to pay he also doesn’t really value her. (cough) bullshit (cough)….and how anti-feminist of you all.

    And my absolute favorite: “Plus, once the relationship is committed, we principally start eating on my grocery bill, so it evens out in the end-”

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL….all the chicken breasts and broccoli in the world wouldn’t even cover the wine bill on the average date, not to mention food and entertainment. Nice try, though.

    Bottom line: If you are stuck with the notion of a man paying for all/most dates, that’s fine. Just remember that that desire to provide and protect that’s so appealing to you also comes with the expectation of him being in control and your submission (this will manifest itself in large and small ways but you will see it because he will not see you as an equal…you’re another dependent like a child). You can’t neuter half of a “traditional” man and keep the rest. You’ve been informed.

  • D

    “Well, if he’s the one trying to court her and he was the one who invited her out on a date why should she have to (or be expected to) pay anything?”

    This is nice and convenient since men do the asking (and courting) 99 percent of the time.

  • M1zzdlady

    The man in this story is a damn sleeze ball! He didn’t make an innocent mistake, if it was a mistake he would’ve called the young lady up and asked her for a second date…then he would make things right by treating her to a good time and actually paying for it!
    *kissing mi raas teet*

  • M1zzdlady

    Here’s one: I recently went on a date with a man and we went to a upscale restaurant in NYC and you know what he did? He had us split an appetizer; 1 crab-cake and a bowl of mac n’ cheese. I have never experienced something like this (at least he paid).The worst part is, he asked me for a second date.

    Another piece of advice: Men stop acting like you have it like that when you don’t. Don’t invite woman to an expensive restaurant then ask to split a damn crab-cake. For all I care, our first date could be at Fridays and I’d be fine with it. It’s only a first date, we may never see each other again, so there is no need to “fake it” if you don’t really have it like that. First dates should be casual and pressure free.

  • M1zzdlady

    @rastaman….some men who still live by traditional standards are offended when a woman asks to pay. I think the most thoughtful thing a woman can do is to at least pay the tip. I start paying for meals when I feel like the guy is worth my time.

  • SEID_ALLE_DOOF

    Whoever asks out pays for the date but you should always come with cash money, a credit or debit card. You cannot just assume the other person is going to foot the bill. A wise person once told me you should never assume because it makes an ASS out of U and ME…

  • Drebin

    What happen to all the independent talk? seems like black women only want to be independent until the bill comes. Most of the guys who agree with the idea of paying for the dates most likely are simps.

    No man should pay for a date from a non-traditional women. How can a women demand tradition from a man when she herself does not want to be held to any roles herself. No man should subject himself to a “do as I say, not as I do” date.

  • Orange Starr Happy Hunting

    Actually those men who have the expendable dividends to spend on outings/dates etc do so because they want to and rather enjoy it. Some men like to ball, floss. and stunt, nothing simp’ish about it.

  • Starla

    @M1zzdlady
    You know what, research him. Because some times rich dudes pull this testing thing to see if you’re just all about the money. Then again, he could just be broke as a church mouse. I can bet the size of those portions too..lol. I can only imagine you had to go home and cook something afterwards.

  • JaeBee

    “This is nice and convenient since men do the asking (and courting) 99 percent of the time.”

    And?!

    Coming from a biological and evolutionary standpoint, men have always been the primary pursers when it comes to relationships. This is even true in the animal kingdom.

    Women, being the ones responsible for bearing children and ensuring the continuance of the race are responsible for being selective about their future partners and choosing the best one who will help them achieve their goal of ensuring that any progeny is able to reach adulthood. The “mating game” is all about “survival of the fittest”. Obviously, a woman will want to select a partner who is able to show that they have the resources (and willingness) to support any future progeny. Because of simple biology women know that they will automatically be responsible for caring for any future offspring–whether there is someone else there to support them or not. They stand a much greater chance of seeing their progeny survive into adulthood (and flourish) if they have a partner who is able to provide resources. Women assume a lot of “risk” when starting relationships with men, and need to have some assurance that a man will one day be able to be a good co-provider for their children. Men who are interested in having relationships with women should instinctively know that they have to prove their worth to women (i.e. that they are supportive and willing to provide) if they hope to have anything long lasting.

    Nowadays, a lot of men are just selfish and lazy and don’t want to put any real effort into courting a woman. They want minimal effort (i.e. inviting a woman out to dinner and expecting her to go dutch–or pay for the entire meal) to yield maximum outcome (i.e. expecting that this same woman will deem you worthy enough of her affection and will choose you to partner with).

  • lol

    my comment was a reply to some bitter dude , not the writer of the article.

  • K. Michel

    If you’re born and raised from NYC then you always know where your money is.

  • Drebin

    No that is what you call a TRICK, another form of simpin, nice try though.

  • Drebin

    This is why I suggest you should ask women to ‘hang out’ with you as opposed to taking them on dates, to many women with entitlement issues.

    Only take them out on dates when you can be sure you are getting a return on your investment.

  • JaeBee

    “Only take them out on dates when you can be sure you are getting a return on your investment.”

    And I would encourage all women to only accept dates when you can be sure that a man is selfless enough to invest in your worth and will not be childish enough to expect things to be tit for tat.

  • JaeBee

    Umm, submitting to someone’s will has NOTHING to do with biology. Where did you get that idea from? The need to breed and continue the species is biological…expecting someone to submit to you ‘just because’ is cultural.

  • Sarah

    Ephesians 5:22-33 : Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[b] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

    The last time I checked the scriptures said wives submit to your husbands and not boyfriends, fiancee, FWB, J.O and etc.

  • simplyme

    There are few things more unattractive than guys complaining about paying for dates or treating the whole thing like a transaction… I guess one of those few things includes actually not paying.

  • Drebin

    You can encourage all you want, but there is more than one way in getting to know someone, old fashioned “dating” doesn’t have to be your first option, I wouldn’t have met my girlfriend if this wasn’t the case. And men can and do try other alternatives which pay off.

  • Flash

    Likewise there are few things more unattractive than women complaining and nagging about cooking, cleaning and doing the household chores…I guess one of those few things includes actually not doing them.

  • bob

    All I got to say is from reading the comments, I am so happy that men are waking up to the realities of feminism. Women will pay for their own things, and will not get money from no men except simps that cant get women with out money. Thanks to all the MRA’s and men with common sense to go for true equality all the way through. I wont judge you if you got 30 bodies and you std free, but dont expect me to observe some traditional values and not others, no no no no motumbo voice.

  • JaeBee

    “You can encourage all you want, but there is more than one way in getting to know someone, old fashioned “dating”.

    What are you talking about?! This article was about dating (specifically going out on dinner dates) NOT other forms of getting to know someone. Yes, people can choose other alternatives in getting to know someone, but that was not the point of this article.

  • Drebin

    I wasn’t discussing the article, your the one who jumped on my comment when I pointed out that you don’t NEED to go on old fashioned “dinner” dating to get to know people, just hang out instead (and men should DO this) if you dont want to pay on dates.

  • lol

    @ JaeBee

    I find it interesting how nobody touched your comment…

  • http://gravatar.com/cesarke cesar

    I hear you Drebin! That’s why I’d rather take them to Starbucks. I do dinner dates if the girl is my girlfriend. A first date is supposed to be a casual get-together.

  • Pseudonym

    I actually like the idea of a Starbucks date! Not for reasons of being anti paying-for-a-woman-bc-I’m-bitter-about-women’s-lib, but it’s in the middle of the day, so less romantic pretense and it seems like it would be more relaxed. Plus you can get to know the person b/c you’re just talking and it does take the pressure off worrying about what the bill will be if you’re on a budget (i.e. if you’re expecting a $30 date and appetizers, wine, meal, and dessert knock you out of your budget). Plus, I would imagine a man would be less “handsy” (i.e. putting hand around your waist) in broad daylight and there’s not that “good night kiss” moment.

    I’m quite active, so my ideal date is actually meeting up for a morning run and then going for bagels and orange juice afterward.

  • cesar

    To all the guys out there, do not, i repeat do not take girls out on a FIRST date to an expensive restaurant. Do something simple such as a coffee house. With coffee there’s time constraint. If you don’t like her you don’t have to go through the akward silence, you can just say you aren’t feeling it, pay the bill (which won’t much) and leave.

    Why spend a lot money on a girl you may not even like? Some girls are out to get a free meal. They know a lot of guys are wuss and will put them on a pedestal and spend much money on first dates.

    Keep that for later when she deserves it and actually becomes your girlfriend.

  • Pseudonym

    What exactly is this non-traditional woman that you are talking about? I think you’re mixing things up and trying to make apples oranges and oranges apples. A woman can be educated, have a powerful position at work, make money and still be traditional- this even exists within certain circles of Saudi Arabia where the women are covered from head to toe, can’t date, get arranged marriages, and are still educated and work at researchers, professors, lawyers, etc. while still not being able to interact with men one-on-one or drive a car. Just because a woman gets a higher ed degree and has a career, that doesn’t mean she can’t have traditional dating/family values. And that doesn’t equate to “picking and choosing for one’s benefit” because professional, financial, romantic, and religious autonomy are not inextricable. There are housewives who stay home, cook, clean, and don’t work and had sex with their (now) husbands on the first date. There are bossy women who rule their houses and social circles and are known to be tough and “not take any mess” who let their bosses and coworkers take advantage of them at work. and there are women who let their husbands and family members take advantage or even physically abuse them at home but then go into work and known as hard-ass bosses.

    Just because a women chooses to be traditional (or liberal) in one aspect of her life, doesn’t mean she has to do so in every aspect. Same goes for a man. There are men who do the whole “metrosexual” fashion thing, but can still open the hood of a car and know what’s going on under there or who choose more “feminine” professions (ballet dancer, nurse back in the day) and still be the head of their households.

    But anywhoo, I think all decent, non-bitter men know all of this. It’s only the scrubs and losers who can barely attract women to go out with them (regardless of who paid, how much they paid, or where they went) that whine and cry about paying for a date- I’ve never come across an exception.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ron.johnson.31586526 Ron Johnson

    It’s hard to believe some of you people are quivering over $20 to $40. If you’re over 30 years old and this is a significant amount of money to you, then you really need to reevaluate your job, education and/or training.

    As a man, If I invite a women to eat, I’ll pay. As an adult with common sense, If I invite a friend to eat, I’ll pay.

    Every other day, I’ll read discussion threads such as this one on various sites that affirm why black men and women have the lowest marriage rates and highest divorce rates. SMH

  • bob

    Do what works for you man. Everybody different play the game how you want it who says women cant be head of the house , not all built for it but some can do it find. everybody different, man. lets leave it at that do what works for you and the other person.

  • Ummm…

    And THE most unattractive thing is when cheap men flood a WOMAN’S WEBSITE to defend a man who should know better.

    sheesh!

    I’ve never been on a man’s website (because I am not one) but do women come out of the woodwork (which clearly means they are lurking) to comment? Good lord, get a life!

    ETA: And all these idiot men complaining about “black women this” and “black women that” and “white women do” check the byline on the article where it was originally written by a white woman.

  • talaktochoba

    how can you be so blind?

    you put it right in front of you and flat missed it!

    yes, it says for wives to submit to their husbands, but as they do to the Lord– NOWHERE does it say husbands are supposed to or even have a right to force wives into submission!

    and if you look at the structure of your quotes, it says for the husband to submit himself to the Lord as the prime directive in loving, NOT FORCING, his wife;

    equally so, nowhere does it say the husband has rights or even permission to force a wife who chooses to not submit to him or the Lord;

    now, i’d be remiss if i didn’t admit to doing as most men and teasing my wife about submitting to her husband in all things, but then i deserve to be hit by whatever she submissively hurls at me–i’m one of those who likes to pick a fight, then step backgiggle at the result;

    still, how people so easily twist these passages to suit their own agendae “in the name of God” remains one of life’s great mysteries…

  • Drebin

    Seeing as you are so hell bent on men paying for dates the old traditional way…

    I take it you don’t mind if men insist on chastity for women, or women sticking to their household chores, or women taking their husbands last name when they get married, etc the old traditional way…

    Whats good for the goose is good for the gander, like they say…

  • Pseudonym

    Like I said, there’s only a certain type of man that would spend so much time and energy vehemently fighting the idea of having to pay $20-40 on a first date within the comments of a black women’s on-line magazine (if you are really a man). There’s no more discussion to be had.

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    ^^^ truth

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    “But don’t negatively judge the standard that other people have set for themselves. We all have a right to our standards and others can either meet them or go on with the next one who wants someone like them.”

    exactly. If a woman isn’t engaging in romance without finance, then there are more than enough men to oblige. If a man wants a more forward thinking woman, then there are more than enough women that insist on paying their way. There are enough men and women that accept patriarchy (or portions thereof) and reject patriarchy to not have to worry about those that don’t think the same way.

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    Ha, that could work both ways — paying for her when he feels she is worth his time.

    But I’m with Rastaman on this. I’ve paid many times, but the entitlement thing is not cool. If she acts like I’m supposed to be paying her way or in any way gives me the indication that I’m somehow being judged or being placed in the friend zone if she has to pay for herself, then I will probably not be interested in anything long-term. Payment required to be a romantic interest — it seems there is a name for that.

  • Drebin

    Yeah I’am the certain type of man who believes in…wait for it…EQUALITY, *shock, horror*. :D

    If you demand certain things that men should do from patriarchy, then men should be able to do the same demanding things that women should do from patriarchy with all the points I listed…

    Otherwise its 50/50 spilt down the line, and nice try in side stepping my previous question, I see you didn’t write your long boring essay this time.

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    I think your definition of gender equality is a bit incomplete. A woman’s contribution can be valued equally to a man’s while she is still hamstrung by gender roles and prevented from certain aspects social, financial, professional, or educational attainment. The idea of gender equality has to be rooted in equal treatment (it is what “equal” means, as opposed to equity). Most definitions, especially in law, I have seen speak about equal treatment unless there are real biological differences. As there are no real biological differences that would necessitate a woman not being able to pay for her own food, it doesn’t seem that any real gender equality would allow for such a gendered expectation. There really isn’t any room for any restrictive gender roles outside of those based on real differences within gender equality.

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    women’s lib had everything to do with patriarchal constructs, such as chivalry, which give rise to concepts of who pays on a date. The idea that a man should or is expected to pay for you in any respect, outside the realm where the payment is without regard to gender roles (a man buying a round of drinks for men and women seated at a bar), is born out of the same mentality that holds that women are property. The idea that the benefits of patriarchy are somehow separable from patriarchy itself is born out of the cognitive dissonance that comes from enjoying one’s own oppression to some extent. But no one likes their own oppression, right?

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi
  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    I feel you, but equality literally does mean same. Equity doesn’t and I think that’s what many people are thinking when they say equality, but equality means sameness.

    Although I admit that it MAY put me at a disadvantage with some women (many women don’t judge a man by what they pay for and there are so many other factors that women look for, there may be no net disadvantage), that’s not the issue I have. I genuinely feel that this is a symptom of a larger problem of restrictive gender roles that disadvantage women far more than men. I believe gender gaps in pay, education in certain areas, promotions, and the law are connected to the mentality that collaterally suggests that men should pay for dates. It has an underlying, unstated assumption of inferiority that I find unacceptable. To me, $40 isn’t a big enough deal, in of itself, for me to care about. It’s more about the mentality behind it. It’s a form of benevolent sexism that seems to be more problematic than hostile sexism, because it is lacks malice and intent. It’s hard to root out the isms that people aren’t aware of.

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    I’ve done Starbucks quite a few times and I agree. Definitely more relaxed and less pressure. Works well if your intention is to get to know someone.

  • Pseudonym

    It did. He didn’t contact her after that date for a second one, which is why the article was written and the dude seems shady. If he called her for a second date and remembered his wallet the second time, this article wouldn’t exist b/c he would have shown that the first date blunder was truly an accident. Also, as others noted, the restaurant was walking distance from his house, so he could have just as easily went to pick it up (“He had arrived on foot to the date since he lived nearby “) or go pick up the money to reimburse her afterward (even if for just his half if he had decided that he didn’t want a second date).

  • talaktochoba

    could we be more facetious? we have definitive biological roles to play, despite the continual assaults of the PC crowd;

    the man is the provider (& pls don’t offer up exceptions as if they are the rule) and so on the first date/encounter, he pays, period;

    on subsequent dates/encounters, it’s negotiable, but the man should ALWAYS be prepared to pay, irregardless, as me mum would say;

  • Mademoiselle

    Ravi, I think no one read the pdf you linked to. VERY interesting theory — so interesting that I’m even commenting on a “who should pay for the date” article, which I hate participating in. I have to say I totally agree with the effect of benevolent sexism for a variety of reasons, but I’ll wait to see if anyone else comments to list them out.

  • bob

    its the principle fam. But I always pay for dates because I take out women that are worthy of my time and respectful. And dont want me to pay and genuinely will pay for themselves.

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    well, at least one person read it, so it’s worth it :)

    I try to drop a fresh perspective on things when I can.

  • Mademoiselle

    I agree with bob, and wanted to add to HNWG that Clair Huxtable was a feminist (check out the episodes where she schooled Elvin on her “role” in the family and the one where Denise’s boyfriend says she should be home raising kids since Cliff makes so much money). Just thought you’d like to know.

    Also if the Huxtables are the kind of family you envision yourself in, I think you have more in common with some feminists than you think. For instance, Clair put Heathcliff through med school just like he put her through law school, Cliff cooked and cleaned just like Clair did, they both doled out advice, discipline, and special treatment to the children without being cajoled, and they both yielded to each other’s wishes and feelings towards various topics. It was a household that valued and respected both men and women equally.

  • Pseudonym

    For these “guys” complaining that a woman expecting him to pay on the first date is picking and choosing her values and should be chaste and completely traditional, you have the complete right to demand that…IF you will have you parents meet her parents, let them set up the engagement, only go on a few public outings (for coffee, lunch, or dinner at her parents’ house) and then marry her before you even are allowed to kiss her- and be careful not to get caught when you try to sneak and touch her hand. AND you have to pay her parents a dowry.

    Like someone said, it’s not just women who are keeping some traditional customs and adopting new ones. There are plenty of men enjoying being able to take a woman out on a date and have an hours/months/years/decades-long romantic relationship with her and have all they sex they want with her without having to get married first- or at all.

    Let’s all be real: imagine if you had married your first girlfriend/boyfriend EVER? I’m sure many of us would be MISERABLE!!!!

  • Common Sense

    Wow, he was just scum. How are you going to ask someone out and then make them pay? He must be struggling and if that is the case, he should stay home!!!! How he could feel comfortable in his manhood after pulling that stunt is a mystery to me!

  • Pseudonym

    Out of curiosity, do black people have high divorce rates as well as low marriage rates? I just assumed since so few black people get married and there’s less social pressure to do so, more of the ones who get married would stay married b/c they’re less likely to get married b/c of bad/superficial reasons such as family pressure, girlfriend pressure, just thinking it’s the “grown-up thing to do,” want kids, etc. (Of course there are some black people who get married for those reasons, but I assume it’s less since I know so many more black Americans who have kids without being married.) Just curious b/c I thought I read somewhere that blacks Americans had lower divorce rates when compared with white Americans.

  • http://gravatar.com/cocovabarbie KemaVA

    X+y=A+B is an equality statement but that doesnt mean x=A or y=B. Yes equal can mean same but it can also mean balanced. In any relationship there is going to be a give and take. Dating is like a dance. Take Salsa for example. We cant both step forward at the same time. The man steps forward while the woman steps backward. I dont believe in gender roles and I dont even care if a man makes less than me. But when it comes to dating I expect him to pay because most likely he asked me out. To me this is him taking that step forward.

  • Kema

    X+y=A+B is an equality statement but that doesnt mean x=A or y=B.  Yes equal can mean same but it can also mean balanced.  In any relationship there is going to be a give and take. Dating is like a dance.  Take Salsa for example.  We cant both step forward at the same time.  The man steps forward while the woman steps backward.  I dont believe in gender roles and I dont even care if a man makes less than me.  But when it comes to dating I expect him to pay because most likely he asked me out.  To me this is him taking that step forward.

  • http://gravatar.com/sealinewuman sealinewumanwuman

    Right?!? If he truly was NOT a douchenozzle, he would have willing left his iPhone or license and run back home to get his wallet. No need to wonder about it, dude was a deadbeat. Please blast his name so the rest of us Brooklyn ladies can avoid his trifling ass, this would be a public service.

  • http://gravatar.com/sealinewuman sealinewumanwuman

    Thank you! I was sitting here scratching my head going, “where they find these men at?” Split? Go dutch? Um, no. I have never paid for anything on a date or even with guy friends, it’s just not something that’s done with the guys I know and date. But I tend to date African and West Indian men in particular, and non American men in general, I dunno if that has something to do with it.

    I remember I tried paying maybe once or twice and wound up with some seriously pissed off dates/friends. I remember the first time I did that was with a friend of mine, a Ghanian guy from London, it was a pretty expensive French restaurant on the LES in Manhattan, the bill was over $200, and when I reached into my bag and pulled out my purse he looked at me and asked me what the hell I thought I was doing, then told me not to ever do that again when I was with him, and I never have, with any guy. Call me anti-feminist if you want to, if a guy asks me out and then asks me to split the bill, he and I are going nowhere fast. If I don’t like him and have no intention of seeing him again, I insist on paying my share of the check.

    I’m not opposed to spending money on dudes, anniversaries, birthdays, if I go shopping and I see something you might like, not an issue, but going out? Not gonna happen.

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    the statement that x+y = a+b means the quantity x+y is the same as a+b. It necessarily means the same. It doesn’t follow that other quantities will also be equal. x isn’t the same as x+y. To make this more concrete — 5 = 5, but of course it doesn’t follow that 2 = 1 or 3 = 4. that doesn’t take away from the fact that the equal sign between the 5′s means that they are the same quantity. An equal sign can suggest balance, but balance in this case would have to mean sameness. Same weight or same magnitude would be an example of balance. If you put 5 kg on one side of a literal balance, only 5 kg on the other side with balance it. Using your salsa example, if the man only took forward steps and the woman only took backwards, wouldn’t they just end up backing up indefinitely? I’ve never been salsa dancing, but I seem to recall that each person is stepping forward and backward in quick succession. The balance would be maintained if they were both taking forward and backward steps.

    I understand your preferences about a man paying and why that is. It makes sense that he should pay if he’s the one asking you out. And when you have no shortage of guys asking you out that are willing to oblige, then of course you would have that expectation. My only point was about the word “equality”.

    Concerning gender roles, do they come into play in that the guy likely is asking you out? Why are you not asking guys out and subsequently paying, if not for the idea that it’s a man’s role to be asking you out?

  • Mademoiselle

    To play a little devil’s advocate: Do you ask men out as often as men ask you out? Do you treat as many men to dates as the number of men who treat you to dates? If I were to put myself in men’s shoes, I would think their beef is because the argument that “you asked, so you treat” sounds like a roundabout way of putting the onus on men without outright saying “men must pay.” For most women (including me), they aren’t reciprocating the chase, which means men are the askers by default and thus the treaters by obligation. Also, if I were a man, it would frustrate me to hear counterarguments that a relationship is give and take when the discussion is about the first date, which may or may not lead to a relationship. Women tend to withhold the generosity of treating men to dates until they’ve gotten to a point where it seems like it’s going somewhere, but men are expected to be generous upfront every time (while women often tout the notion of bringing enough money to cover her share as an accomplishment/insurance that they don’t really expect to have to rely on more so than a duty). I could see how that makes them feel like they’re playing from behind in that regard, and why they would want to reel in the generosity to their own advantages. Imagine how many first dates they go on before they get a woman who is willing and able to get serious enough with him to offer to 1) split the bill, 2) treat him wholly, and 3) actually do either without expecting him to put up a fight that she would “submit” to because “the thought” counts more than the action.

  • Orange Starr Happy Hunting

    Actually what I described is not trickin. But it is pointless to keep debating with someone that can’t comprehend the definition of the term they claim they are arguing, Pseudonym described this type to a T.

  • Kema

    Well let x+y be the woman and A+B be the man. The sum of what they give or take in the mating dance will be equal but with different variables contributing to the sum. Also keep in mind I never said a man should pay for dates. A man that dates ME should pay for dates. I’ve actually never had a man suggest I pay. I think if a man doesn’t want to pay he shouldn’t and should then seek like minded women to balance his equation. I don’t believe in one approach working for everyone.

    I think some gender roles when it comes to dating are there for a reason. The things that make my heart flutter are probably not the same things that will move a man’s heart. (I keep hearing men are not as impressed with my degrees as I would be when hearing about theirs). That’s why I think its silly to expect to receive the same in situations like dating. I happen to be an aggressive woman so I have approached men. But ive learned the hard way that it works best for me when I allow a man to approach me. Yea I can go against the grain and reject gender roles but until everyone else gets the memo I play the game with the rules that are in place. ;-).

    I also deal with the equal vs same with my kids. They are not the same so I don’t treat them the same but I do treat them equally.

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    if the sums are equal then that means they are the same. The sum being equal doesn’t suggest that the parts that make up those respective sums will also be equal (the same). I recognize that you weren’t saying that a man should pay for dates in general. I feel you on most everything except the meaning of equality.

    So is it that you do actually believe in some gender roles? It seemed before that you were saying that you don’t believe in them. Is it that you feel that it’s not worth going against the prevailing winds so you end up giving in to them or do you actually agree with some gender roles?

    As for kids, I would argue that you aren’t treating them equally, although you may be treating them equitably. Now if you are treating them the same ceteris paribus, then I would say you are treating them equally. For example, if you assign child one to shovel the snow because they are 10, but not child two because they are 2 months old, I would say it is still equal treatment if you would have assigned child two to shovel the snow if they were age 10. That is still giving them the same treatment given the specifics of their circumstances.

  • Mademoiselle

    KemaVA, if you’re treating your kids differently, you’re treating them equitably, not equally. For instance, you feed both until their full, which is equitable (equally appropriate), but you won’t feed both equal amounts if one is an infant and the other a teen. You punish one by taking away his toys and the other by denying him time with friends to get the same remorse, which is equitable (fair), but not equal.

    Your equation states that sum of x + y equates to the sum of a + b. The reason you use an equal sign is because solving both sides yields equal amounts, and that affords you the substitution of the variables in place of numbers. The sums equal, not the variables themselves. That’s why if you multiply b by 2, you can’t just multiply y by 2 to make the equation true. The value of men may equate to the value of women, but men and women aren’t equal.

    That’s the end of my semantics policing :)

  • Kema

    My equation still stands. You’re look only at the first date I’m considering the entire mating dance. There are things many women do in dating and relatiinshios that men do not. Am I for gender roles? I can not believe in it all I want but biology overrules that when a man puts his arm around me and I feel a sense of protection.

    But of course men and women will never be completely equal… well not until u can carry children. :-p

  • http://gravatar.com/ravsmith78 Ravi

    No, I’m looking at the whole, not a specific date. I never disagreed with your equation, just your using the equation to suggest that equal doesn’t mean same. The equation you wrote makes sense and it says that the sums are the same. The sums being the same doesn’t suggest that the parts are also the same. Your equation was never a point of contention.

    Biology may dictate some gender roles, like who wears the tampons in a given relationship, but most things, like me paying for dinner even though you make more money than me, are more cultural in origin. I don’t have a problem with gender roles based on real differences. Only those that are artifacts of gender domination and don’t reflect actual biological differences.

    I wasn’t suggesting men and women could or should be equal, just that equal does mean same. :P

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