Right Side Of History: The End Of DOMA, Prop 8

by Kirsten West Savali

MEAThe often discriminatory and myopic views of some evangelicals and the rallying cries for progress and equality from the LGBTQ community and their straight allies have led us to this pivotal point in our nation’s history.

The Supreme Court will decide the constitutionality of same-sex marriage and the ripple effect will inevitably shape policy and society for generations to come. And as a cisgender, heterosexual Black woman, I could not be more thrilled. The federal Defense of Marriage Act and California’s Proposition 8 are malignant tumors choking society’s evolution and it is past time that we pull them out at the root.

In a society where “no homo” and “pause” are considered homophobic-lite, and, in the words of Dr. Michael Eric Dyson, “sexual rednecks” attempt to restrict the LGBTQ to permanent underclass status, the hijacking of the law to legislate morality has paved the way for reductive and disingenuous dialogue. Biased rhetoric framed around Christianity — and the arrogant assumption that this country’s moral compass should be guided by subjective religious scriptures — have clouded the concrete facts.

This is not about who one prays to in the morning or sleeps with at night, it’s about the simple fact that as tax-paying citizens of this country, the LGBTQ community has the unalienable right to marry.

Period.

And they have the right to call it marriage.

Period.

And the Christian church does not, or rather should not, dictate national policy.

Period.

No disability, ethnicity, gender, creed or sexual orientation should create a barrier between tax-paying citizens of this country and equality. If the LGBTQ community is “allowed” to die oversees for this country, then they damn sure have the right to be married in it.

In response to Attorney Charles Cooper arguing against marriage equality in the state of California, Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor asked a simple question that encapsulates the core of debate:

Outside of the marriage context, can you think of any other rational basis, reason, for a state using sexual orientation as a factor in denying homosexuals benefits? Or imposing burdens on them? Is there any other decision-making that the government could make — denying them a job, not granting them benefits of some sort, any other decision?

Cooper, clearly struggling with whether or not to continue his erroneous argument or admit that he actually did understand the law, crumbled beneath the question.

“Your Honor, I cannot,” Cooper said. “I, I do not have, uh, uh, any, uh, anything to offer you in that regard.”

“If they’re a class that makes any other discrimination improper, irrational, then why aren’t we treating them as a class for this one benefit?” Sotomayor then asked.

Why, indeed. The answer is subjective morality of the religious class and that has no place in an individual’s rights and freedom.

See exchange below:

The place is here and the time is now for the end of sanctimonious, self-righteous, condescending bullsh*t masquerading as morality. Discrimination in any form must no longer be protected by bigoted, legal (mis) interpretations. Just as miscegenation laws were ruled unconstitutional, just as Black people had to legally be declared completely human and not 3/5ths, this country is experiencing history in the making. It might not be your fight, but it is a legitimate, necessary fight that is one step closer to being won.

In the words of the revolutionary Huey P. Newton:

“Whatever your personal opinions and your insecurities about homosexuality and the various liberation movements among homosexuals and women (and I speak of the homosexuals and women as oppressed groups), we should try to unite with them in a revolutionary fashion.

We must gain security in ourselves and therefore have respect and feelings for all oppressed people. We must not use the racist attitude that the White racists use against our people because they are Black and poor.

Homosexuals are not enemies of the people.

No, they are not enemies of the people; they are the people. We. The. People. And justice for any of us, is justice for all of us.

It is time.

***

Follow Kirsten West Savali on Twitter at @KWestSavali.

  • http://gravatar.com/missinformation7 Ms. Information

    If this comparison of the black struggle to the gay struggle continues…I just can’t……the comparison is not even close…those who think so know nothing about the black struggle.

  • http://www.myblackfriendsays.com myblackfriendsays

    Is there a sound argument that states how legalizing gay marriage won’t lead to polygamists challenging the laws on the same basis, so they can get the tax breaks and all the other benefits that come with legally recognized marriage?

    I am a supporter of gay marriage, but I am not really that interested in letting Joe Bob and his 75 wives have a legally recognized marriage. Call that bias if you want, but simply decriminalizing polygamy is about as far as I’m willing to go.

  • http://gravatar.com/missinformation7 Ms. Information

    But (for argument’s sake) how can you agree with one form of “marraige” and not the other? Who can tell a polygamist that he cannot marry his two wives? The definition of marraige will never be the same, this is the slippery slope.

  • Sasha

    Yeah I’m going to need the gay rights struggle to stop being compared to or paralled with the civil rights struggle. Gays have and have always had unalienable human rights here in America, Blacks were fighting for those unalienable human American rights. Before they are gay they are American citizens, they are humans, Blacks weren’t even considered American citizens, much less human and they were fighting for those rights. My Blackness is something I can not hide, you see it on my face, before you know me or who I am, you see that I am Black. That is NOT the case with homosexuality. These struggles are not the same. Nonetheless just give them the right to skip into a courthouse and get married. Americans have long argued for separation of church and state so in keeping with that separation, give them their marraige but don’t for a second believe that LGBT have the “right” to skip into a church, Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, etc. and have a clergy member perform the ceremony. If churches believe in the BIBLICAL definition of marraige and will only perform a ceremony between a man and a woman, that is 100% within their right and the government should stay out of it.

  • Uncontainable Spirit

    Can’t have one without the other. It’s coming. Trust. Once the dynamic of male and female is severed the duality being severed is not far behind.

  • Sandy

    Exactly. Some people by virtue of their religion or culture believe in polygamy. If marriage is not going to be restricted to a union between a man & a woman only then I think it’s only fair that people begin to campaign for polygamy to be legalized too.

  • stef

    see this is what i don’t understand, I support gay marriage because i don’t believe government has the right to tell two consenting same sex adults that they cant have the right to marry.

    So what right does government have to tell 3 consenting adults they also cant marry. lets go a little further what if a bi-sexual women or man, wants to marry. do they have to choose to be hetro or homosexual to marry? and if they are in love with 2 people and all of them are consenting why shouldn’t they have the right to marry?

    this is what happens when you open Pandora box

  • Orange Starr Happy Hunting

    ITA

  • Uncontainable Spirit

    Yup… exactly. Pretty soon I’ll be able to marry myself.

  • mEE

    a comparison is just that though, a comparison. I think any civil rights struggle; whether it’s gay rights, rights for minorities, women’s rights, worker’s rights…whatever, have a lot of similarities. I don’t think anyone is equating them. that’s would be impossible to do anyway because you can’t quantify struggle.

    what about the comparison bothers you?

  • Shayne

    oppression is oppression. No one said they were identical.
    The point is why does one oppressed group think its okay to oppress another?

  • stef

    i support gay marriage but i will never consider gay peoplem (especially white) in America oppressed. in the middle east and some part of africa sure, but in america the only so called oppression they face is having the same marriage status as hetrosexuals

  • http://gravatar.com/missinformation7 Ms. Information

    Oppression in being hung from trees, it is being burned alive, it is having the lowest economic income (gays have a higher income then blacks do)…oppression is rape, cultural stripping……………Disagreeing is not oppression. Blacks cannot oppress gays, we do not have the economic power to do so. We can disagree..that is a rite of life.

  • mEE

    @ Stef & Ms. Info

    that’s not the ONLY oppression gay people face. are you joking?
    marriage equality is at the forefront now but do you know there are a large number of states where it’s LEGAL to disqualify you from a job because you’re gay? LEGAL. legal to deny you housing. are we calling that merely disagreeing?
    and if we’re talking about “just getting married”, it’s not the marriage. it’s the rights that come along with that. the right to be listed as next of kin. the right to have the same tax benefits as hetero couples. the right to continue living in a house you shared with your partner after that person passes. the right to health insurance. and many other rights we heteros take for granted.
    how is that not oppression to deny those RIGHTS to an individual because of their sexual orientation?

    so yea we win the “We Had it Worst” award. great. Black people can keep that. …but what does that have to do with recognizing that other individuals face SIMILAR struggles in this country?

  • Deidra

    I agree! The comparison also discounts that gay people of color exist.
    The intersecting of different social issues is often overlooked!

  • http://gravatar.com/libpatriot GeekMommaRants

    Emmitt Till and Matthew Shepard were killed for the same reason. They were killed because they spoke to the wrong people. This is the reason both civil rights movements are compared. Matthew Shepard was killed by two gay men. Gay men kill each other more than straight men kill gay men, it would be hard not to see the pattern.

  • http://twitter.com/ithas2besaid Think Critically

    NO ONE is saying that being black and gay is the same thing. It isn’t. But, there are many parallels between the two struggles. The idea that somehow gay people are not oppressed is laughable.

    Gays can’t marry. Blacks could not marry.
    Gays are often physically attacked and killed. Blacks were physically attacked and killed.
    Gays are often faced with open hostility. Black are often faced with open hostility.
    Gays are denied jobs and housing. Blacks are denied jobs and housing…
    I could go on and on.

    As a gay black woman, I will have to honestly say that I face more open hatred and discrimination due to my sexuality than as a result of my race. When you are gay, you often face discrimination from your family, coworkers, friends, churches, social groups and society at large. Black people can at least find solace in their homes and faith communities. For many gay people, we have no safe haven.

    In 29 states in this country, I can be fired for being gay and there would be no legal remedy. My marriage to my partner of the same gender is not federally recognized. I have been verbally and physically assaulted for being gay. I have been emotionally and psychologically abused and traumatized for pretty much my entire life due to my sexual orientation. Every single day there are gay people who are attacked and beaten and killed for their sexuality worldwide. So, please don’t tell me that we don’t experience oppression and discrimination.

    As for gay marriage, the idea that somehow there is one definition of marriage, is laughable. Even the Bible condones polygamy. Throughout history and still to this day, there are many paradigms of marriage. There are marriages where young girls are married off to older men, polygamy is still practiced in various cultures worldwide, there are arranged marriages, there are marriages that were purely contractual arrangements between families, the Bible even calls for women who are raped to marry their rapists, and men to marry their brother’s widow.

    Most opposition to gay marriage is rooted in pure and unadulterated discrimination. Plain and simple. Some folks don’t believe that my relationship, my love and my humanity is worthy of the dignity of marriage. But, I am an American and I deserve the same rights and the same opportunity to pursue happiness that heterosexuals have the right to. Someone else’s religious or moral convictions should not supersede my rights.

  • Malik Hemmans

    No they wasn’t killed for the same reason

  • Pink Lipstick

    I think marriage contracts should be limited to two consenting adults.

  • mEE

    thank you for this.

  • http://gravatar.com/missinformation7 Ms. Information

    Did you just compare the lynching, torturing, tying to a cotton gin and drowning of a child to anything else…girl please…Matthew Shepard was a consenting adult who left a bar with 2 men that he did not know….it was not even proven that Emmitt Till spoke to that white woman…shame on you for this comparison.

  • http://gravatar.com/missinformation7 Ms. Information

    First of all MeE…do you disclose your sexual orientation when you apply for a job? NO!! My black skin discloses itself..Who is saying that one should be denied a job because they are gay? Do you know that gay people have a higher per capita income then black people? Rights can also be given through civil unions.

  • Heather

    The comparison is necessary. Look up Stonewall Riots. Better yet look up Bayard Rustin. He was one of MLK’s chief organizers for the March on Washington. Rustin was suppose to speak that day, but due to the fact he was a gay man. The black struggle and the gay struggle are closely tied together.

  • http://gravatar.com/missinformation7 Ms. Information

    btw…neither deserved what happened to them.

  • Pink Lipstick

    Thank you for sharing your story. I couldn’t believe what I was reading in this comment section.

  • mEE

    but you’re not hearing what I’m saying Ms. Info. you have legal protection under the law should someone choose not to hire you because you’re black because it is ILLEGAL to do so. you’re right you don’t disclose your sexual orientation on a job application. but are you telling me that you think it’s ok for someone to LEGALLY fire you because they find out you’re gay? and you know damn well you don’t receive the same rights and benefits in a civil union or domestic partnership as you do with a marriage.

    so if that’s ok with you, if you’re ok with a certain segment of the population being treated as second class citizens because of their sexual orientation (regardless of whether they make more money than you or I) then there’s nothing left for us to discuss.

  • Il Taker

    I just would like to thank you for making your voice heard on this here blog. Often times when articles like these are posted, it’s always the homophobic people (i.e. the first chick above commenting who has the audacity to have such a username) coming out to spread their unwanted poison within the comment section. They like to forget that there are LGBTQ people within the black community and that this is double oppression, being discriminated against for their skin color and sexual orientation. They have no real rational reason to deny anybody their right to marry either than “Their God says it’s wrong”. You guys deserve the right to be wedded in this country regardless of some idio…I mean people’s beliefs. I

  • http://gravatar.com/libpatriot GeekMommaRants

    @Malik, They were both murdered for showing attraction. Emimitt Till for a white girl and Matthew Shepard for a gay guy.

  • http://gravatar.com/missinformation7 Ms. Information

    Mee..you are super ignorant if that is what you got from what I said….NO…someone should not be denied a job because they are gay…but they do have a better chance at getting it being white and gay when they do not disclose their sexuality as opposed to a black person…no one should get fired for being gay…where are you getting this from? I am for civil unions being altered to mirror marraige…..Stop putting opinions in my mouth thanks.

  • http://gravatar.com/libpatriot GeekMommaRants

    @Ms Information–The comparison of why a baby and young man were murdered is close. I am not saying these victims are interchangeable, they are not. I am saying they are similar.

    I really enjoy your comments. Thank you.

  • http://gravatar.com/libpatriot GeekMommaRants

    Thank you for your courage.

  • Yeah OK

    For blacks this is more than a religious or ideology issue. For blacks this has now become a issue of SELF PRESERVATION. 60% of gay black men are HIV positive. Heterosexual non drug injecting black men are ony 5% of HIV positive black men. 1 in 32 black women are now HIV positive. Where do you think they’re getting it from? Black women now have HIV higher rates than heterosexual black men.

    The highest black at risk group for HIV is not black women. It’s their sons that black women are indoctrinating that the gay life style is normal and acceptable. The only thing that’s keeping this disease from spreading like wildfire in the black community is the heterosexual black males absolute unequivocal rejection of the gay lifestyle. Black women NOW being infected is nothing more than the chickens coming home to roost.

  • Il Taker

    I say forget the comparison, since you are so clearly bothered by it, running up and down the blog trying to convince others there is none. Outside slavery, lynchings and other atrocities that us black folk had to face, why is it so difficult for you and others to see that gay people are fighting for their civil rights and that they too face vehement discrimination. You should be aware there are homo and bi sexual people within our community as well and that this is double the oppression for them. I know a lot about the black struggle. I’m freaking living it. But if there is one thing I don’t struggle with is being able to walk hand and hand and kiss my boyfriend in public nor do I have to beg good ol’ U.S of A, so called land of the free to marry him. And since gay people pay taxes just like me in this country, nobody has the right to tell them they can’t get married to the person they freaking love. Not you, not the damn Pope, them stuffy ass white men sitting in the freaking house/congress nor the crazy ass religious zealots whom I wish an asteroid would just crash into already.

  • Pat

    If homosexuals are expected to pay taxes, contribute to society within every structure as other citizens – to warrant benefits should exist as well. Who a person loves shouldn’t have anything to do with their human rights. It’s as though they are being penalized for their desires while contributing towards society’s survival/forward productivity. Within this sense, the LGBTQ is being discriminated against. Fair contributions should equal fair treatment and fair rights. I don’t see how the Supreme Court doesn’t deem this as immoral. However, it is a country based on discrimination not fairness.

    And another piece is if the LGBTQ community is permitted to have children, shouldn’t they also be allowed to marry? With this decision being based on religion – it seems as if this status will go hand in hand. Between some rights given and some not, similar to the AA struggle, unfair treatment cannot continue to exist. If it does, Society is ultimately saying you’re a complete citizen only when we desire for you to be. Under these circumstances, I cannot help but sympathize with their struggle.

  • Yeah OK

    For the black community this is more of an issue of SELF PRESERVATION. Look at the HIV rates.

  • seritatheresa

    1/2 of new HIV cases in the US are African American heterosexual women. there is a high prevalence of HIV in the black belt where mass incarceration and skewed relationship markets prevail. homophobia is ions away from the solution.

  • stef

    Very valid point.

    The problem is when people think of gay people in America, they don’t think of poor minority gay people, the first vision that comes to mind is gay white people, who regardless of being gay are still blessed with white privilege when it comes to jobs, housing , access to capital and just having the right to walk down the street without being pulled over by police because of they skin tone

    this is where the argument of being a so-called oppressed people start. I’m sorry i cant put them in the oppressed box over black,latinos and immigrants especially in this country.

  • Cocochanel31

    This is not my fight, so I cannot add too much to this debate. However, I will say my how society has changed? WE will allow any and everything under the sun and while it is nothing new, since GOd states there isss nothing new under the sun, I do take issue with gay people or gay rights activities bashing those who are against it.

    We are all entitled to our opinions and doesn’t mean we hate anyone if we don’t agree with what’s going on. I will honestly say I don’t know what it’s like to be gay so it’s not my place to march FOR OR AGAINST IT!

  • JaeBee

    Just to play devil’s advocate but, if all parties are adult and all parties are consenting why should the marriage be limited to just 2 people?

  • http://gravatar.com/rastaman1967 rastaman

    As long as the government is going to be in the mariage business then the government will have to allow all citizens regardless of their sexual orientation get married. According to the US consitution Equal Protection Clause: “no state shall … deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” What many in the black community who oppose gay marriage have to understand it that the very same Fourteen Amendment that was established to protect their rights from Jim Crow laws will guarantee gay Americans the right to marry. So if you want to take away gay people’s right to marry understand that those very same reasons can be used to deny black folks equal protection under the law.

    There are a lot of things that are legal that I do not condone and I am sure that there may be thinks that i do that other folks do not condone but i do know I would not want to live in a society where the rights of the minority or left to the whims of the majority. 40 years ago in this same country much of the very same demonization passed for criticism has the Courts desegregated this country.

    I am with Coretta Scott King:
    Freedom and justice cannot be parceled out in pieces to suit political convenience. I don’t believe you can stand for freedom for one group of people and deny it to others.

  • Blue

    “And the Christian church does not, or rather should not, dictate national policy”

    True, & non believers should not dictate what goes on in the church or make people feel bad about what they believe. People have a right to agree or disagree. That’s our freedom. It’s a little hypocritical to me when want tolerance yet seem intolerant of others who may disagree with their lifestyle. If you disagree you are labeled a “hater” or a “homophobe” even though you may not hate any one or have a phobia of gay people. The mindset of society when the open minded are just as equally closed minded. Freedom of speech & freedom of religion.

    Oh and another thing, race & sexual preference aren’t the same thing.

  • Humanista

    “I will honestly say I don’t know what it’s like to be black so it’s not my place to march FOR OR AGAINST [racial equality]!”

    “I will honestly say I don’t know what it’s like to be a woman so it’s not my place to march FOR OR AGAINST [the hijacking of woman's health decisions]!”

    “I will honestly say I don’t know what it’s like to be in poverty so it’s not my place to march FOR OR AGAINST [the rights of the homeless]!”

    Injustice is injustice is injustice. It may not be “your” fight, but the reaches of the outcome will effect all. I cannot think of a single decision taking away or giving rights that did not have a serious domino effect on an/other group(s). Can you?

  • http://twitter.com/ithas2besaid Think Critically

    The oppression Olympics is tiresome. Every single group of disenfranchised people draws parallels to other groups of disenfranchised people. Black people are the only people who get their panties in a bunch when anyone draws parallels to us.

  • http://twitter.com/ithas2besaid Think Critically

    Pandora’s box has already been opened. Polygamy is practiced by millions of people worldwide. Polygamy was once openly practiced in the US. Polygamy was practiced in the Bible. So, I am not understanding how gay marriage will lead to polygamy when we have already been there and done that.

  • http://www.myblackfriendsays.com myblackfriendsays

    I don’t have a problem with large groups of people deciding to get together and calling it a marriage. You know, live and let live. What I do have a problem with is all these people getting the tax breaks and other benefits.

    This is why the government should have never given preferential treatment to one living situation over another.Then we wouldn’t be in this predicament.

  • stef

    @Think Critically, its not a contest, its not a Olympics, its not a award to be oppressed, its knowing the difference,

    Hell lets make it simple then if that is yours and other belief. Everybody in America is oppressed except white heterosexual males . so now everybody has the right to now say the are oppressed and call it the new civil rights movement

  • Yb

    “As a gay black woman, I will have to honestly say that I face more open hatred and discrimination due to my sexuality than as a result of my race. ”

    You had me right until here. I think the reason why gays and especially black gays recieve so much animosity and lack of support from us is because many like to minimize and downplay the effects of racism in society in order to make their oppression seem greater then it is. (I.E. Opression Olympics)
    If your experience is that you face more Opression as a homosexual that’s fine, but don’t state it as universal truth. By all means express the injustices you face as a gay person, but don’t downplay the injustices I face then expect me to support your cause.

  • http://twitter.com/ithas2besaid Think Critically

    Dr. Kevin Fenton, director of the Centers for Disease Control’s National Center for HIV/AIDS, Viral Hepatitis, STD and TB Prevention, said the CDC has studied why Black women make up 61 percent of all new HIV cases among women, with 80 percent contracting the disease through heterosexual contact.

    ‘We know that a lot of the infections are actually coming from male partners who have high-risk behavior,” Fenton said in an interview in his Atlanta office. “In fact, we have looked to see what proportion of infections is coming from male partners who are bisexual and found there are actually relatively few. More are male partners who are having female partners and are injecting drugs or using drugs or have some other risks that may put those female partners at risk of acquiring HIV.’” -Dr. Kevin Fenton

    Furthermore, if gay people get married, wouldn’t that promote monogamy? How does allowing gay people to get married increase the spread of HIV? *CONFUSED*

  • Yeah Ok

    @seritatheresa

    Forget all of this BI talk trying to separate homosexuals. Either your heterosexual or not. Gay is Gay.

    Heterosexual, non intravenous BLACK MEN have a lower HIV rate than Black women. It’s almost unheard of for a heterosexual black man getting HIV (less than 5% of black male HIV cases are heterosexual men). Where do you think black women are getting HIV from? It’s not heterosexual black men.

  • http://twitter.com/ithas2besaid Think Critically

    I love my partner with every bone and marrow in my entire body. I cannot marry her and am denied 1,100 federal benefits.

    I fear that I will be raped, beaten or attacked if I hold my partners hand in some cities/states/neighborhoods.

    I worry that I may lose my job if anyone finds out that I am gay because in the state that I work in, it is perfectly legal to do so.

    When I apply for a new apartment with my partner I often pretend to be her roommate so that we will not have our application denied, because it is legal to do so in my state.

    In 12 years, I have not spent a holiday with my family because they do not accept my relationship.

    When my partner had cancer 3 years ago, I was denied hospital privileges because at that time, hospital privileges were not extended to gay couples.

    If my partner or I were to die today, our parents would be able to challenge our wills and even if either of us wins the challenge, we would have to pay thousands upon thousands of dollars in estate taxes that we would not have to pay if our union was federally recognized.

    It’s discrimination. We are being discriminated against. Is it slavery, NO. But, to pretend that we are not being oppressed in some way shape or form, is purely a function of your cognitive dissonance.

  • http://twitter.com/ithas2besaid Think Critically

    No one said this was universal, you did. I am sure that there are many gay black people who will argue that they experience more discrimination for being black. That’s not my case. I am not going to pretend that my reality is not my reality.

  • http://twitter.com/ithas2besaid Think Critically

    I got my information from Dr. Kevin Fenton, director of the Centers for Disease Control’s National Center for HIV/AIDS, Viral Hepatitis, STD and TB Prevention.

    Where do you get your information from?

  • Yeah OK

    @Think Critically

    Now black women are getting HIV from drug addicts? You might want to change your screen name. lol

    Per CDC About 87% of young black males got HIV from male to male sex, 6% from heterosexual sex, 2% from injection drug use and about 5% from a combination of male to male sex and injection drug use. Over 60% of Gay men will have HIV by 40. That’s 6 out of 10! Again, this is a SELF PRESERVATION issue.

  • http://gravatar.com/libpatriot GeekMommaRants

    It is a dangerous game to play my pain and struggles are not like your pain and struggles. This view is selfish and child-like. Every culture and group has been through it. Our community has never experienced Rwandan, Darfur, Cambodian like genocide. Slavery today is sex trade of women and children. The point here is we are all humans and history is long but life times are short. We can do better as a race, the human race.

  • http://twitter.com/ithas2besaid Think Critically

    All your statistics mean nothing to me because they are not speaking to infection rates with black women. Again, what does HIV/AIDS have to do with GAY MARRIAGE????? Please explain it to me.

  • mEE

    she clearly said “I” and “my” so how does that turn into making it a universal truth?

  • mEE

    Stef, why is it so difficult to acknowledge the struggles of others? it doesn’t take away from what you or your ancestors have gone through for you to say, “hey it might suck out there for other people too”.

  • Yeah Ok

    Who do you think are infecting BLACK women?

  • http://gravatar.com/missinformation7 Ms. Information

    @ Geekmomma…please read Death of Innocence by Mamie Till Mobley.

  • stef

    MEe i have no problem acknowledging and sympathizing with the struggles of other. Like i stated I support gay marriage based on my libertarian views that government has no right to deny it.

    But im not gonna fool or mislead my self into think all struggles or so called oppression is equal. i made my point that its hard for me to ever believe that white gays face the type of oppression that black people face daily when it comes to the workplace, police, housing, wealth and getting loans from banks. The statistics on all these fronts will back me up.

    if i told you a white women is just as oppressed a black women, you will say im crazy. we can both agree that white women face struggles in the work place but nothing compared to what a sister faces. Same goes for the struggle of gay people in america and black people . this is why that topic cause so much debate

  • http://www.facebook.com/chicagoshparties1 Lovely ChicagosHparties

    This is ridiculous and obviously written with emotion and sensitivity to the subject. Marriage was created for a man and a woman. Period. They can no more call their union marriage than someone else can claim they created or have a right to call their magazine clutchmagonline. Period. This isn’t about morality in a world full of sinners, slackers and christians that are no longer their brothers keeper. This is about people fighting to fit somewhere they don’t belong because it was not designed ad intended for them. Period. The type of relationship they have is not covered by marriage. I’m sure we’ve all heard of things not being cover by an insurance policy, well this is the same deal. It’s written in the text and has been written for years. Do you suppose we change a law everytime a group of people decide it does not fit their life ? That’s absurd. Put your emotions aside sometimes ladies, everything does not deserve your feelings.

  • Not convinced

    IMHO, where the problem lies is this immigration stuff & the marriage and birth certificate stuff. BTW in France this fight is not religious based and many atheists don’t want it.

    1. Immigration – easier to just be roommates with someone from another country who wants to get into the USA and bring their entire family. We already have immigration issues, big ones. Just no.

    2. Marriage & Birth Certificates – do you want your wedding certificate to say PARTNER 1 and PARTNER 2 instead of BRIDE & GROOM as it now says? IDK about you but I want Bride & Groom not some faceless PARTNER. And the same with birth certificates – PARENT 1 and PARENT 2 instead of MOTHER and FATHER? Think about this very seriously people. This is making me think about jumping to R’s as we speak.

    FWIW, IDC about gay marriage but the issues I’ve raised do bother me and are serious.

  • E.M.S.

    For the most part I’m glad to see in the comments that people are in support of defeating Prop 8. Thank you for learning to separate your personal beliefs from the allocation of basic human rights!

  • the forgotten

    I am glad for your courage. This is the WRONG side of history. marriage is the bedrock of society. Any other arguement is simply immature. No wonder Africans do not approve.but Abuse of homosexuals is never justified ever. Still marriage gives stability for children to grow. You cannot be pro family and progay. Progay does not produce life. Even plants reproduce. Homosexual lifestyles do not promote health or fruitfulness hence a union of two males or females cannot produce a life. This is evidence enough it is unnatural in origin in order to reproduce there must be an opposite sex. To have to defend this is crazy.

    You can call it civil rights to protect individuals from harm and discrimination but to say its a civil right for two men to marry is NOT ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS. the civil rights movement was a movement of morality at was starting in the basement of a church. NOWHERE would any of these law abiding citzens argue and march on washington to justify sin, immorality, perversion or loose living they were saying the same law that was supposed to follow MORAL laws were failing to do so. Moses married an ethiopian. Sorry. This is a result of a parentless nation and rebellion against anything orderly. To ‘redefine’ marriage will have extreme negative consequences to our sons and daughters and also promoting a civil right of two men living together and equating it being black is saying that the color of my skin is the same as an alternative sexual practice which produces no offspring. How is that correct or in ANY way promting the advancement of black persons in the diaspora but further justifying why they considered us less then a human being or sterotyping of a black women as a mammy or sex crazed jezebal in the first place. We should b discouraging our sons from this so Please count me on the WRONG.. (proudly) side this time. #nothawrongwithbirthinbabies

  • Ads

    Dont know if the ‘texts’ you’re talking about are the bible, but if it is u are not correct. Marriage in the bible included things like 1 husband, two wives (who were sisters), plus two concubines. I think the emotions involved are your own. You dont like gay marriage? Then dont have one, dont go to any gay marriage receptions, and dont gift them blenders from their registries. But to assume your interpretation of the bible should dictate LAW and justice in the united states is wrong. BTW – im a catholic, churchgoing believer, with a theology degree cum laude from georgetown university. It’s fine that you’re not cool with it, but to expect a democratic secular government to uphold your prejudices is a no

  • howsthatworkingforya?

    Homosexuality cannot produce life #nuffsaid i have a right to MY opinion. Being against immorality doesnt make me a bigot

  • howsthatworkingforya?

    Wow glad someone said it?

  • http://www.facebook.com/desi.rivers.1 Desi Rivers

    How can you ask anyone to put emotions aside when your argument is based purely on emotion?? If I may inquire why is marriage solely for a man and a woman? Because you said so? because a man and another man can’t produce offspring? because you read it in the bible? What makes you or any one else the sole authority on who can and cannot have certain rights? I ask these questions not because i’m emotionally involved, but because years ago in the time where black people weren’t looked at as human…A white person would have spewed the same things you just said about another HUMAN BEING about YOU. It is not about changing a law when people decide it doesn’t fit their life; we change laws because the preexisting one was wrong! and It is wrong to say that just because someone’s relationship doesn’t fit YOUR definition or some ignorant laws that it isn’t right….remember honey in the constitution of this great country IT IS WRITTEN that our beautiful black selves are 3/5ths of a person STILL. but hey let’s not go changing laws! they’re already written down so they must be right! -__-

  • steff

    very well written article! agreed with every word

  • peppermint

    They aren’t closely tied. There is no gay struggle.

  • Lauren

    And we’re still struggling. While everyone is so wrapped up in this gay marriage debate, our kids are getting shot and dying in the streets, our men is being imprisoned at an alarming rate, our schools are falling apart, we’re dying of HIV…do I need to continue? LGBT groups can go on and on and pressure civil rights groups like the NAACP to support their agenda but do they offer the same in return? Nope! They can’t stand in solidarity with us on our issues, oh but they’ll gladly play that “you scratch my back I’ll scratch yours” with Latinos. Some of y’all need to wake up. I hate to quote that druggie Lil Wayne, but “you think them n*ggas you with is with you?!”

    Now I know some of y’all like “Lauren you bugging” and ready to give me all kinds of down votes, but before you do read the article below and get back to me.

    http://kineticslive.com/2012/10/same-sex-marriage-lobby-teaches-important-lesson-when-will-black-people-learn-it/#disqus_thread

  • http://gravatar.com/ceecollegegal CeeCee

    Ms. Information-

    I have to agree with you; the black struggle and LBGT struggle is not the same. People need to realize that there is a difference between being marginalized and oppressed. I have no problem with LBGT marriage, but the LBGT community is not being oppressed in anyway; there is no Gay Removal act where all LBGT individuals are gathered and then moved to a small blip of land nor are there any Gay Crow Laws separating the children of gay parents from the children of heterosexual parents on the school playground (Indian Removal Act of 1830 and Jim Crow Laws).

  • KKC

    Some heterosexual relationships cannot produce life either dummy! Procreation is not the only reason people partner. Marriage was formed mainly for economic reasons, no procreation. Get your head out of the cliff notes of the bible and read a history book for a change.
    Remember when blacks could not marry simply bc the majority said it wasn’t their right. They were procreating for sure but marriage was prohibited because it was a sign or equality, economic and personal freedom. Why deny gays that right? If you don’t agree with gay marriage don’t marry a gay person and you’ll be fine.

  • KKC

    Your argument is based on the title used on your marriage license and birth certificate???? I pray to all the gods in life that you have no offspring.

  • KKC

    I find it,interesting that the black community, which is one of the MOST morally bankrupt communities when it comes to the basics of life get all holier than thou when it comes to the idea of marriage. Especially when black marriage is like starting to look like the a flying elephant–an improbable myth. Look at our communities, the shootings, the lack of respect for ourselves and others. The celebrities and reality stars who make a living off of hosting club parties that charge black folk hundreds of dollars for bottle of liquor worth a fraction of that. (Sorry tangent) bottomline: black people need to focus on their own morals and not what others are doing. Gays are not the prob. Gay marriage is not the problem. We’re in our own way and usually on the wrong side of logic when it comes to what is moral and what is not.

  • Wanda

    I don’t recall a period in history where by law, when free black people could not marry each other.

    There were points in history for sure where when we were slaves that we could not marry, because as a whole, black people did not have rights in general. That’s why the 14th Amendment was passed to give black folks citizenship.

    There were slave marriages, though. That’s how “jumping the broom” started.

  • http://gravatar.com/afrosaxon1 afrosaxon1

    I believe that two consenting adults have the right to make a legal contract with each other if they do so please, that’s their right under law, they pay taxes to the same people I do. I don’t particularly care if they call it marriage, because frankly, they can call it the hokey cokey, my opinion on it will still be the same and I have a right to have that opinion. I don’t believe that homosexuality is a positive lifestyle choice (and whether there is a genetic predisposition is debatable, but lifestyle is still a choice in the same way that you can be heterosexual and choose to be celibate/promiscuous etc), but that doesn’t give me the right to try to inflict that belief on the government. (Separation of church and state and all that jazz)..
    I do have issues with gay adoption because I believe that children fare best when they have a mother AND a father, not a mother and a mother or a father and a father. They aren’t two grown consenting adults making their own lifestyle choices, so it’s a different ballgame. Does this mean that gay parents can’t financially provide for children as well as other parents? No, obviously not, but I’m yet to be convinced that from a psychological standpoint that children don’t need both male and female parents. Single parent households are prevalent, but that doesn’t mean they’re at all ideal, and I feel that that’s the same for LGBT headed households.
    My problem is, you can’t technically allow gay marriage and not allow gay adoption. I would feel the same about children being adopted into a polygamous household.

  • Cocochanel31

    iI personally am not convicted on the issue enough to march or fight for it, which last time I checked is still my right. I don’t agree with it so why compromise my values? I def think their partners should be afforded benefits etc, but to sit up here and fake and pretend I think this is the natural order of things, for me personally I just dont feel that way.

  • Cocochanel31

    My point exactly. While I don’t agree with it, I am still called to embrace and love all people since ye without sin cast the first stone. I would never belittle or embaress a gay person, or make them feel bad. I just don’t agree with this marriage issue and will not march for it. However , if they want a hug or some food I will gladly give it lol.

  • Shayne

    Stef, thats not necessarily true. Firstly: there are gay people of color. Secondly: gay people get turned away and/or fired from jobs ALL THE TIME because of their sexual orientation. ESPECIALLY in parts of the south where hate, bigotry and ignorance are running amok among the self righteous and the self hating.
    Gay people get turned away from jobs without having to wear a “Hey I’m gay! pin or a rainbow hat because we falsely think that we can see orientation. A person walks into a room and we think we know if they’re gay or straight because of all the images we see of what a gay person is and they get judged based off of that.
    we ALL have a certain amount of privilege. Those with the most are white, middle class and above, heterosexual, able bodied males.
    but not being gay does shield you from some experiences that you have never had to deal with and thats what some people don’t realize.

  • Shayne

    Its frustrating when black people want to play the “My struggle is worse than your struggle!” game. how ignorant is that? You don’t think there were gay people marching with MLK Jr in Washington? You don’t think there were gay people rallying for our rights? are you that self involved?
    White gay people could have easily said “Welp I got my seat in the front of the bus soo you guys are on your own”
    Some might have. But a lot didn’t. Because they recognized that we are all minorities. And when all the minorities unite, we are extremely powerful

  • http://twitter.com/ithas2besaid WOMP

    Wanda, thanks for the point that contributed absolutely nothing to this conversation.

  • Shayne

    PREACH girl.
    its so easy to get caught up in the “woe is me” sad song of being black that we forget that although we don’t have White privilege (clearly) those of us who are not gay DAMN sure have heterosexual privilege.
    Heterosexual IS A MAJORITY GROUP. which means that when you are in a room, you can be pretty certain you aren’t the only straight person there.
    if you want to hold hands with your significant other people probably aren’t going to shout rude comments at you. and look at you with disgust
    also did i see gay people aren’t oppressed because “oppression is rape”?
    sooo gay people never get raped?
    Miss info, Do you know ANYTHING about the rates and statistics of rape and sexual assault against lesbians? clearly you don’t.

  • Shayne

    so why did you read this article and take the time to right that then?
    since theres so many other issues in the world

  • http://gravatar.com/nocdib nocdib

    As someone mentioned earlier there is a difference between martginalization and oppression. The insidious aspect of the gay rights agenda is that when they cite statistics on oppression the victims are usually LGBTQ people of color and paint the entire LGBTQ community as being oppressed. The gay-bashing, police violence, disease rates, etc. are endemic to the black/brown members of the community, not the white. They’ll piggy-back on the minority struggle when it suits them but just remember, a gay white person is still white and once they have marriage equality they will have everything that comes with white privilege. See if they remember you once they’ve “arrived.”

  • Shayne

    but, who’s trying to dictate what goes on in the church? absolutely no one. what we are trying to do is keep the church out of politics.
    Separation of church and state. People seem incapable of keeping their religious beliefs separate from legislation
    disagree all you want but not believing in homosexuality for religious reasons has nothing to do with anything.
    If you belief they’re going to hell or whatever else let them go, but why actively try to deny them their rights as citizens too?

  • Shayne

    hm, i respect this. I respect the fact that you can separate your personal feelings on homosexuality from the legal and legislative issue of same sex marriage in regards to federal law. kudos to you

  • Alita for All People

    well, this is just all kinds of false.
    Heterosexuality is a privilege, point blank period. no matter what color you are.
    not saying that straight black people are completely accepted. but there is more than one type of privilege.
    Being able to hold hands with your partner in public without being harassed is a PRIVILEGE
    the over 1,100 rights that married people get and people in “civil unions” don’t get is a PRIVILEGE
    there is no color assigned to that. whether you are gay and black or gay and white those are over 1000 rights that you don’t have.
    people don’t get fired from their jobs for being straight.
    in 29 states if you are discharged for being gay you can’t even fight it because its perfectly legal
    (you can absolutely fight being fired for being black though)

  • Really?

    @Yeah Ok – A lot of people like to talk about “down low” men being the reason for the spread. It’s mostly about the smaller group of hiv positive heterosexual men that have multiple partners doing the spreading.

    It is a myth in the black community that black women are getting HIV from bisexual men. It is being spread by a small group of men who have multiple partners, use drugs, and don’t use protection.

    And black women are indoctrinating their sons to think being gay is okay? What a dumb statement. Many gay black men have talked about the homophobia that they experienced from black people and the lack of support, so I doubt that is true. Do you even have any anecdotal evidence to back this or did you just make this statement up?

  • http://www.facebook.com/devon.thomas.144 DeVon Thomas

    It appears people love to muddy the waters. I read some of these comments, and it was just sad. Separate but equal can’t exist under any form. PERIOD. The NAACP gets it that it should support equality for all people, not just the inequalities dealing with the black struggle which still exist. Every inequality movement has some similarities and differences, but each one we should work at overcoming. History has shown us that change only comes when it is forced where it isn’t wanted. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr said “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”

  • http://gravatar.com/afrosaxon1 afrosaxon1

    I’m not sure that that’s a fair analysis. I think you’ll find some of the segments of the community that are into the celebrities, reality stars etc are probably more likely to be pro gay marriage. The highly religious segments of the black community that disagree with gay marriage tend to also be anti the clubbing/celebrity/ party atmosphere,etc.

    Also this statement, “I find it,interesting that the black community, which is one of the MOST morally bankrupt communities when it comes to the basics of life” I simply cannot accept. Frankly, I think the white community could be seen as equally if not more morally bankrupt, but the socio-economic power they have means that their moral bankruptcy plays out in a different way. Every community has their flaws.

  • http://gravatar.com/afrosaxon1 afrosaxon1

    “It is a dangerous game to play my pain and struggles are not like your pain and struggles.”
    With all due respect, this is hugely simplifying the differences between the black civil rights movement and the gay civil rights movement. For example, white women and black women have both faced sexism. It’s extremely fair to say that white women have not had the double drama of racism AND sexism that black women have had to face and therefore no, my pain and struggle is not like that of a white woman, and I’d be ridiculous to think it is. There might be similarities, but it’s a very different ballgame. That’s what people are saying about gay people and black people. May be similarities, but it’s a whole different ballgame.

  • talaktochoba

    sorry, but your PC bleating couldn’t possibly be more wrong;

    first, removing the spiritual from the equation, we are all here because of the union of the original man and the original woman–NOT because of ANY product of two males or two females–therefore, the biological imperative is ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN;

    that biological imperative was given blessing by all major religious writings, and it is ALWAYS that blessing which is sought at weddings, which can only be given in recognition of the biological imperative aforementioned all religions thereby bless;

    scientists for centuries have concluded the biological imperative is engineered toward eliminating extinction–i.e., reproduction…now what separates us from the remaining animal kingdom is our cognitive brains, which allow us to impart a quota lot emotion amplifying the biological imperative;

    although all proper unions cannot possibly provide issue, that in no way negates their conformity with the biological imperative–thus any attempts at union which attempt to dismiss that biological imperative are by definition inaccurate and wasteful, as they point toward what would inevitably be extinction;

    in other words, no male can provide to another male what a female can in a relatio ship, nor can any female provide what a male can to another female–any two females who think they can raise a boy into a man will find to their regret they are sadly and completely mistaken, and vice versa;

    thus religion only supports the biological imperative–not define it–and celebrate its legitimacy in some form of monogamy to thereby ensure the greatest possible procreation as a barrier to extinction;

    thus almost every known religion celebrates humankind as either fashioned by and/or made in the image of an omnipotent presence, beginning and kept in continuance as issue of the very first MAN AND WOMAN;

    now should two of the same sex wish to form some union they have every right, but in no way, shape manner or form can it possibly be considered anything even remotely resembling a marriage, as it fails the biological test, the extinction potential test, the historical test and thus the religious test;

    any law that seeks to contrevene this natural order merely multi lately either invites hermaphrodism (like seahorses) or extinction–in other words, eventually enough unions contrary to the original one will mean for the human species to survive, one subset will have to contain the biology of both sexes to reproduce, or simply face extinction;

    in short, one sex will simply not be necessary–any volunteers of either sex to go extinct?

    i didn’t think so;

    so please, stop trying to convince everyone your union is “legitimate” as a real marriage between a man and a woman, okeh?

    yes, LGBTs have INALIENABLE HUMAN RIGHTS, but getting married is not one of them: that is not a right but a privelege earned by meeting the proper qualifications, just like any other privelege–and that means a union consisting of that of the original union–ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN;

  • Bangel

    I pray that the Supreme Court makes the right decision and defends traditional marriage.

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